In Depth: Olbermann vs. Mediaite…
Last night I started typing up a blog post regarding this Colby Hall Mediate entry answering Keith Olbermann’s “gullible” accusation directed at the site for noting a Tea Party video attacking Olbermann. I wrote that, yes indeed, Mediaite was gullible, but not for noting the Tea Party video but for falling into Olbermann’s trap and taking the bait he laid out, which sat there pleading for a response. It was typical Olbermann shtick, right down to Keith having to fake looking down at his notes and stumbling through pronouncing the word “Mediaite” as if he’d never heard of the site before.
I also wrote that Olbermann’s attack probably had little to do with the Tea Party thing but more to do with this Hall article which, somewhat shophisticly in my opinion, put Rachel Maddow over Keith Olbermann in terms of importance and credibility. Maddow is certainly a “safer” alternative to Olbermann, who is definitely more in the bomb thrower mold, but has shown some of the same reckless sweeping generalization tendencies in her show that Olbermann has…not to mention other talking heads like Beck, O’Reilly, Hannity, etc. And for pure power Olbermann still can move the base more than Maddow precisely because he is of the firebrand mold which tends to agitate the base more than the more reasoned nuance of Maddow. And to argue that Maddow being more politely recieved at CPAC than Olbermann ever could be means she’s more powerful ignores a fundamental truth; Olbermann’s bomb throwing pisses off those that would go to CPAC a hella lot more than the more sublte, principled arguments that Maddow tends to use. CPAC goers hate Olbermann because he’s made it easy for them to do so. It’s tougher to muster that kind of hate at Maddow because she hasn’t given them the ammunition to do so other than taking stands in total contradiction to what they hold dear. Similarly, the idea that political movers and shakers would tend to follow Maddow more than Olbermann is similar to the notion that David Brooks’ pieces in the New York Times are more sane and rational than say Rush Limbaugh’s. In this scenario Maddow is to Brooks what Olbermann is to Limbaugh. Both are powerful but in different ways. You could argue that either is more powerful but it all boils down to what your criteria for your power measurment is.
The second argument in support of the “Maddow rules” theory was Mediaite’s own power grid which breaks a rule we use in Quality Assurance testing; eating your own dog food can skew the results, particularly when the metrics involved are still in dispute (for non QA types the term “eating your own dog food” refers to disproportionately relying on in house metrics in lieu of outside independent data)
And I would further argue that Olbermann was never the most influential opinion journalist on the left in the first place. The MSM elevated him to that spot to be sure. But that doesn’t mean the designation was valid. Olbermann’s appeal seems to resonate most with the hardest of the hard corps on the left. But that’s a rather narrow segment of the left wing. Maddow’s range is a bit broader but not by leaps and bounds. And the range of both I would conider to be left of center left. That still leaves moderates and semi-progressives who want practical solutions out in the cold more often than not. The same problem exists on the right to be sure. If someone came in with real common sense practical real world arguments and appeal to the center left, the middle, and the center right, they’d clean house. Sadly, I don’t know of anyone who fits that bill. But that’s neither here nor there as far as this article goes.
Anyway, I was typing this all up and then decided, “ah, screw it”. Arguing that Mediate was doing exactly what Olbermann wanted it to do – respond – while echoing the good old days of Bill O’Reilly trying in vain to get at Olbermann (back before he finally figured out that the way to get at Olbermann was to attack GE…which resulted in the muzzling of Olbermann for short time), really didn’t interest me that much and since it was only round 1 I thought maybe I was too far out in front of the story. If Mediaite wanted to play the sucker role, far be it from me to point it out.
But then Olbermann did exactly what I expected him to do tonight, what he always does; he escalated the conflict. He dragged Dan Abrams into it, saying “…this is the same site of a fired MSNBC employee. And in his attempt to implant his bitterness towards this place, to plug or weave it into his website, he has wigged out. He would like us to sweep his failure under the rug as it was a bald faced lie. There will be hell to pay.”
This is typical Olbermann, disingenuous in lieu of accuracy. Abrams has no editorial control over Mediaite. Colby Hall does. Coincidentally it was Hall who penned both articles cited above as well as the Tea Party article that started this whole mess. He’s your target Keith, not Dan. And bitterness? How about not wanting to do any more live opens for the show that follows yours out of fit of pique? And failure? Dan’s ratings were not in a long term negative trend when Phil Griffin pulled the trigger. I would hardly call that a failure. Whether he would have ever attained the ratings Maddow gets is unknown since his show is gone. I tend to doubt it though because Dan’s show was not what one expects from the prime time histrionics that you get from Olbermann and his bomb throwing counterparts at FNC and MSNBC. One wonders how well Olbermann’s shot at Abrams will go down inside 30 Rock because he remains in good terms with a lot of the people in charge there. Olbermann really has stubbed his toe on this one I think.
So now the ball is back in Mediaite’s court. Can we expect another Mediaite article returning fire? History suggests we will. Is it the smart move? Of course not. Mediaite is in a no win scenario here and the smart move was never to respond in the first place, hence my argument about them playing the sucker to Olbermann’s bait. But we’re past that point now. So expect one or more Mediaite articles refuting Olbermann Thursday.
As for the original argument about whether MSNBC’s line-up is diverse or not, it depends. On the one hand it’s well known inside the highest levels of 30 Rock that NBC News President Steve Capus is a big diversity booster. So give half a point to Olbermann. On the other hand, the vast majority of the on air talent at MSNBC is one color; white. Contributors don’t count. Neither does production staff. The reason being the Tea Party video restricted its argument to MSNBC’s “entire network lineup” That refers specifically to full time on air talent. So give half a point to the Tea Party for being technically accurate. But I don’t give much credibility to the Tea Party argument precisely because Steve Capus is a big diversity booster. It’s one reason why Allison Stewart’s show “The Most” stayed on the air as long as it did, in spite of some wanting the show cancelled because of ratings. So in the end I rule in favor of MSNBC on the subject of diversity. But not because of any argument Keith Olbermann made.
Update: Mediaite’s Colby Hall responds to my post in the comments and I respond to his comment.
Update 2: Oh man, how did I miss this? From an emailer…
Read the “wigged”, “bald faced lies” and “to pay” quotes again. There’s a toupe joke in there.
February 25, 2010 at 3:39 am
Olbermann has gone off the deep end; MSNBC needs to have him take a leave of absence.
But, I have a question: Is Abrams employed by NBC or not? At one time he was general manager of MSNBC (he no longer has that role), but does he still play a role of “legal analyst” for either NBC or MSNBC? If yes, Olbermann needs to get his hand slapped, much like Joe got his hand slapped. If not, then I guess Olby can do his regular slanderous schtick and get away with it.
I agree, mediaite will respond. I think they should.
February 25, 2010 at 3:43 am
OH, and as for MSNBC and “diversity”; if MSNBC anchors would cease and desist on the racist crap and counting faces of “color”, the whole diversity issue would go away. I give MSNBC nothing in this whole exchange — MSNBC has allowed their anchors to slander the tea party protesters with the “you’re a racist” garbage from day one.
MSNBC made their bed, they must sleep in it — they dish the “racist” crap day in and day out. Indeed, “racist” now means you disagree with liberal policies since MSNBC has used and abused it so much, it is being rendered a meaningless term.
February 25, 2010 at 5:34 am
Interesting post Spud. I agree with virtually all your points. I’m not sure KO reaches the lunacy of Limbaugh; maybe only because he’s on TV and RL is on radio; but the point is well taken. I, like many others on the left, don’t watch him nearly as often because the show has become more about personal feuds and less about politics.
Maddow, as you say, is a more palatable voice for the non far left crowd and, in the end, I think, has a bigger upside in the world of TV political punditry. She already is considered mainstream by NBC as evidenced by her appearances on MTP; a show you will never see KO on.
I note that she hasn’t commented on this or any other personal blog attack with anything but humor and perhaps a bit of well aimed sarcasm.
The attack on Abrams may go back to the fight to get Maddow her show and the internal politics of MSNBC at that time. It is an odd attack though as most viewers would not even know who he was referring to and, as you say, Abrams has good relations with the network; even still appearing at times as a legal analysis on dayside.
February 25, 2010 at 5:37 am
My family has both liberals and conseratives and for the most part we all just agree to disagree. Maddow would be able to sit at our dinner table…..disagree with half of the other people there……and still gut huggs from everyone when she left. Olbermann would leave in a bloody pulp. He is one of the most insecure little man I have ever seen. I am at a loss why ANYONE, wheather or not they agree with him.
February 25, 2010 at 6:19 am
Hi Spud – a smart and well-reasoned post (as usual.) Allow me to make a couple of small, yet significant points.
The notion that Mediaite – a 7 month-old Internet start-up, with no major media content partnerships nor significant marketing and promotion budget should not take the bait with Olbermann seems short-sighted – especially when his critiques seem unfounded. We’re thrilled to be a part of the discussion and stand by everything we’ve written about Keith (as well as anyone else for that matter.)
Secondly, I agree with you that the real motivation behind Olbermann’s salvo had less to do with the Tea Party video, and more to do with us claiming Maddow is a more respected opinion journalist. Of course we are going to claim the Power Grid to be a reliable judge of these sorts of things – we put a ton of work and solid thinking into that feature, and we stand by it. To criticize us for referencing it would be like criticizing Paul Krugman for referencing solid NY Times reporting in his columns. Further, Maddow enjoys a new standing precisely because she’s NOT the bomb-thrower that Keith Olbermann is. Not sure about you – but aren’t we all growing weary of bomb-throwers on either side?
We don’t write stuff explicitly to anger Keith, or Glenn Beck or Bill O’Reilly for that matter. But we’ve written plenty to do all of that and then some. If Keith is really petty enough to pick a fight with us, then so be it. We’re happy to be punching up.
Bottom line — I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, and I agree with your comment that Olbermann is “disingenuous in lieu of accuracy” – that’s very well put. We try hard not to play in the same ill-tempered sandbox, but our efforts are sometimes more successful than others.
Thanks,
Colby
February 25, 2010 at 6:34 am
My recollection is that Olbermann hates Abrams’ guts, and that it goes way back. Their relationship was so bad that Olbermann refused to do the standard lead-in to Abrams’ show when the latter had the 9PM slot.
February 25, 2010 at 7:32 am
a 7 month-old Internet start-up, with no major media content partnerships nor significant marketing and promotion budget should not take the bait with Olbermann seems short-sighted – especially when his critiques seem unfounded. We’re thrilled to be a part of the discussion and stand by everything we’ve written about Keith (as well as anyone else for that matter.)
This is a philosophical argument, one which also confronts cable news in another form, is publicity publicity regardless of the form it takes? In the blog world this means you look for any hook you can get to bring viewers in.
ICN once famously got into a short public knockdown with Robert Cox over at Olbermann Watch. The spat lasted less than half a day before a cease fire sort forced itself into place. Cox and I were emailing each other behind the scenes as well and Cox made the comment about how, and Robert if you’re reading this I admit this is a paraphrase since that was four years ago, this generated some buzz for both our blogs. Another time Brian Stelter took a very public shot at ICN over some news I wrote on FNC which if you ask him today he’ll probably admit was a mistake but he was paranoid about ICN back then (silly to believe but true). Well I fired back hard at him for it and Anna Marie Cox somehow got tipped off to the spat and put it up on Wonkette. Coincidentally the blog’s web server decided to go down. This prompted one cable news PR person to email me stating that I needed to get my blog up because Anna Marie had linked to me and I was blowing an opportunity.
The common thread here was both of these incidents generated publicity, but they did so for all the wrong reasons. ICN was getting buzz not because I was making a salient point on cable news but because it was involved in a spat. BFD. Anybody can throw rocks. I’d rather have a low readership who reads because I write smartly (or at least appear to write smartly anyways) about cable news than have a lot of readers who read me because I’ll go poke someone in the eye with a sharp stick.
But then I’m not a blogger who depends on readership for financial survival (when I visited CNBC two years ago every on air person there asked me what I was doing to monetize the blog. I kept saying, “Ummm…nothing?”) Mediaite is a for profit operation with a paid staff. It does depend on eyeballs. So I’ll grant you that publicity is more important.
But from my side of the table, I still believe that engaging Olbermann is a mistake, one that O’Reilly has never learned. You can state your case but you can’t win this fight because of two fundamental truths: 1) Olbermann doesn’t admit mistakes and 2) isn’t interested in a philosophical discussion where there’s an agreed upon conclusion. He’s just interested in making you look as bad as possible, regardless of the merit of his argument. In the end, you may score tecnnical points but you’ll have come out looking the worse for it thanks to all the crap he’s thrown your way.
Of course we are going to claim the Power Grid to be a reliable judge of these sorts of things – we put a ton of work and solid thinking into that feature, and we stand by it. To criticize us for referencing it would be like criticizing Paul Krugman for referencing solid NY Times reporting in his columns.
I consider that to be a poor analogy. Comparing reporting at the Times to the Power Grid isn’t even the same thing. You can independently prove or disprove Times reporting. You can’t do that with the Power Grid, even if you do believe its accuracy. And I don’t believe its accuracy. And one of these days I’m going to write a very long blog entry about why the Power Grid is both inaccurate and pointless. But for now I’ll just say that you’ve set up the Power Grid to measure something that is unknowable using metrics which are neither solid nor understandable. That’s a recipe for disaster in as much as trying to come up with something you want to be known as legitimate, something you want to be a cornerstone of your site, and use as a foundation to base articles off of.
Further, Maddow enjoys a new standing precisely because she’s NOT the bomb-thrower that Keith Olbermann is. Not sure about you – but aren’t we all growing weary of bomb-throwers on either side?
I of course agree. But I don’t think you’ve amassed the evidence to equate Maddow’s palatibility with a rise in influence and certainly not a rise in power. She’s certainly more palatible than Olbermann as far as NBC is concerned. But I haven’t seen a huge leap in her influence on the mainstream outside of a fawning MSM which loves to hype the latest trends and NBC booking her on its own late night and Sunday shows. It’s a chicken and egg argument; which comes first? The influence? Or the publicity? I think you could make a more solid argument about Glenn Beck’s increasing influence, separate from the FNC publicity machine, than you could Maddow’s.
If Keith is really petty enough to pick a fight with us, then so be it. We’re happy to be punching up.
Olbermann is that petty. He’s cut from the same cloth as O’Reilly, Beck, Hannity, and even Maddow to a certain extent (she does a better job of obfuscating it. But when you apoligize for a mistake on the air regarding something you said about someone only to then follow up with more examples of why you believe what you said to be true, as she has, it doesn’t matter. Maddow may be a kinder gentler version of Olbermann but in the end she’s still another version of Olbermann).
And you may be “punching up” but at the same time you’re engaging in a street fight with someone who loves to get in a street fight. That’s never a winning strategy in my book. You state your case once and then move on while the other side hems and haws.
But eveveryone is different and I would acknowledge that my thinking in this matter runs counter with the expected behavior of blogs, particularly when ideology comes into play.
February 25, 2010 at 8:09 am
I don’t understand why Dan Abrams would appear on MSNBC as a Legal Analyst when Olbermann called Dan Abrams’ father a “Nazis”…
February 25, 2010 at 8:53 am
“Maddow may be a kinder gentler version of Olbermann but in the end she is still another version of Olbermann.”
Would that be like Greta is a kinder gentler version of Hannity? :;)
February 25, 2010 at 8:56 am
Joe Scarbough was taken to the woodshed for his remarks about KO but KO is allowed to attack Dan Abrams?
You know the public is now seeing is what people that have to work with KO have known for years…he’s a p#ick that uses his position to attack and try to destroy anyone he doesn’t like….Madow better watch her back because if KO feels threaten by her he may try to do to her what he did to Abrams.
February 25, 2010 at 9:13 am
KO’s dreaming if he thinks Maddow’s meteoric rise is solely based on his kindness. She didn’t get there by being easily messed with. If he went after her, he would quickly discover how calmly she turns the screws while smiling behind her Buddy Holly glasses.
February 25, 2010 at 9:16 am
“You know the public is now seeing is what people that have to work with KO have known for years…he’s a p#ick that uses his position to attack and try to destroy anyone he doesn’t like”
That might be true, but the same statement would certainly hold for Bill O’reilly as well. Two peas in a pod. Maybe that’s why they hate each other so much.
February 25, 2010 at 9:17 am
The amazing part is that a couple of weeks ago, Dan Abrams was guest hosting the 4th hour of Today, sitting in for Kathy Lee.
I don’t think your phone rings with an offer to substitute on any hour of the TODAY show if you’ve managed to piss off the NBC brass.
February 25, 2010 at 9:42 am
Fritz, I’ll be thrilled to hear your opinion of BOR whenever he makes a ten minute self serving sermon from the mount throwing his dying father under the bus.
Otherwise, what does BOR have to do with it?
February 25, 2010 at 9:52 am
As much as I dislike many of KO’s tactics, I’m not going to let the ‘dying father’ meme become a created reality. Last night he used the example of the kind of health care he can afford for his dad, to fight for people with lesser means to have the same thing. It’s an argument for universal health care, or at least the public option. He didn’t throw his father under anything. There’s plenty to criticize KO over, but last night’s Special Comment about his dad and health care is not one of them.
February 25, 2010 at 10:20 am
Sorry Joe just can’t give KO a pass on this…as I said before he has used his father and before his mother as excuses to avoid doing his show and then ends up at a baseball game…so if he’s willing to exploit them for that then he proven he’ll use them for anything even to push the crap healthbill known as Obamacare.
February 25, 2010 at 10:36 am
Sorry Mlong, but you can’t lie about what someone said, then claim it’s OK because you don’t like other things he really did say.
February 25, 2010 at 2:56 pm
He did do those things Joe..you really need to stop trying to defend a scumbag like KO.
February 25, 2010 at 3:13 pm
This is my contribution, copied from my comment at TV Newser:
* Expand ⇗
* Verified
Grammie 34 minutes ago
My feelings for Mr Olbermann in his long hard illness are sadness for him and his family and hopes that the remaining time for him will be as peaceful and pain free as possible.
My husband and I took care (AT HOME) of his mother for 10 years, MY FATHER (at home) for seven years and my mother (AT HOME) for four years until his death and I alone for two years (AT HOME) until she died in my home at age 100.
Believe me I know all the demands and pain that comes with that situation and I genuinely feel for anyone else in the situation.
That said, I don’t use the particulars from all those hard painful years in a public setting to settle scores and make political points. KOKOKlown has brought this scorn upon himself and he SICKENS me.
It says it all for me about KOKOKlown.
February 25, 2010 at 3:26 pm
He did do those things Joe.
Yeah, and the “MSM” tagged the guy that flew his plane into an IRS office as a Tea Party follower. I’m wasting my life debating with you. You make stuff up, then stand by it in the face of of evidence to the contrary. I’ve had it.
February 25, 2010 at 7:07 pm
– Mlong— “MSM” tagged the guy that flew his plane into an IRS office as a Tea Party follower. –
Thing is, I’m sure there are some examples of that. But if you’re going to make the accusation, you could at least cite some of those examples yourself. Don’t just wait for the adults to do it.
February 25, 2010 at 7:11 pm
And as I recall, when Olbermann’s mother died, some idiot blogger had accused him of taking the night off for some no-doubt nefarious reasons. Then we later hear of his mother’s passing. Wonder if that jerk blogger ever did apologize?
February 26, 2010 at 11:25 am
I think Keith crossed the line going after Abrams. Personally, I like Dan, I think he’s a nice guy and he seemed to have a good relationship with Keith. I don’t know what the reason was for Keith to not want to do the lead-in for Dan’s show (like he does for Rachel right now), but I’m afraid his clearly large ego could land him in hot water with his co-workers and bosses. I love to watch Keith and hear his analysis on various subjects, but if he wants to make sure he stays at MSNBC, he needs to tone it down. Jon Stewart was right. Keith can make jokes and be a d*ck… it doesn’t bother me, but (for his own good) don’t make it personal and take it too over the top.
As far as Dan, and the criticisms Mediaite’s columnists make about the “lack of diversity” at MSNBC, people like Mr. Hall need to be careful taking the bait from groups like the Dallas Tea Party… looking at MSNBC.com and the pictures they post of their anchors to make a judgment about “diversity” at the network is extremely petty and gullible. Come on… let’s keep it real. There is more to MSNBC than what is on their website.
February 26, 2010 at 11:29 am
CORRECTION: I didn’t mean to infer that Dan was directly criticizing MSNBC’s “lack of diversity”, but he does approve the articles on his own website, doesn’t he?
February 26, 2010 at 11:31 am
We never made any criticism towards MSNBC’s “lack of diversity.” In fact, we made clear that we didn’t see that as an issue. My point was that when one takes an opinion from the very narrow prism of one’s appearance, one should not be offended when you receive the same sort of analysis. Olbermann has shown images of lily white Tea Partiers and tacitly implied racism. Tea Partiers showed the MSNBC website featuring a lily white talent line-up and demonstrated (in my opinion) the failings of Olbermann’s analysis. It was a very small point that has come represent more than my feeble brain ever anticipated.
February 26, 2010 at 11:32 am
No Dan does not approve articles on his website. We provide our own editorial direction. Thanks.
April 21, 2010 at 11:10 am
[...] the Deutsch segment yesterday, which all but forced MSNBC management to deal with it. Given their running feud with Olby, I suspect Dan Abrams is giving out high fives around the office. Exit question: When do Joe and [...]
April 21, 2010 at 11:44 am
[...] the Deutsch segment yesterday, which all but forced MSNBC management to deal with it. Given their running feud with Olby, I suspect Dan Abrams is giving out high fives around the office. Exit question: When do Joe and [...]