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Jansing & Co had a calm, disciplined and exceptionally well conducted week. They are in DC next Tuesday and Wednesday. It will be interesting to see how the discipline goes in a different environment. My guess, as always, is in favor of Chris.
Just watched last night’s interview of Pres. Bush by BOR. It was the best one and I’ve watched all of them save Oprah. O’Reilly is a great interviewer and Bush was able to offer insights on just about everything that you’re not likely to find elsewhere. It was less about the book and more about past, present & future policy. It was a highly intellectual interview between two adults which is rare in cable news these days. Oh, and (FWIW) Bush has more class in his pinky than Obama does in his entire being.
I’m always struck with how different Bush looks these days. You can see that the weight of the office is no longer there. If anyone has the right to ‘Schadenfreude’, it’s a former president. Especially that one.
ls, Your last sentence really destroyed an, otherwise, excellent comment. Have you noticed that commentators always seem to step up when they interview a standing or ex- President.
I knew President Bush when he was the governor of Texas and I felt that he was as relaxed then as he appears now. His problem was his “process” in the presidential years.
BOR can really step it up, when he wants to do so. Over the years, I have seen several excellent interviews. His ongoing problem, maybe less now, in older age and more experience, is his control of his temper.
Fred, Lonestar’s parting shot is a disease inherent to political-blog commentors: It’s not enough to make a point about the topic at hand; a quick shot at the opposition seems necessary..like “what if I fail to mention how much I hate the other guy, and he gets away with something?”. John Boehnor has stupid orange skin and cries too much.
You people may take it as a “shot” but it was a commentary on the interview and the previous interview’s GWB has done. Besides, it’s the truth. BOR couldn’t even get Bush to complain about the hatefest that was his media coverage. All he said about them was that he harbors no resentment towards the media. Compare that to President thin-skin’s seemingly weekly whining about the press, Bush or some other imagined “enemy”.
I believe that GWB is truthful when he says he puts the office of the Presidency above himself…unlike Carter or Obama. If that bothers you, tough shiite.
Interesting item on TV newser revealing that only Fox broke out of programming to cover Obama’s late-night news conference last night in Asia. CNN, MSNBC and HLN all blew it.
Can’t be a news network if you’re not prepared to broadcast the news.
It doesn’t bother me a bit, it’s just a cheesy cheap shot. Did BOR ask Bush why he bullsh!ted the American public about yellow cake and mushrooms clouds so he could start a stupid war in the wrong country? Yeah, I didn’t think so.
Good catch, JWE. I’m a pathetic excuse for a news viewer; I was waiting for Red Eye and throwing things at the screen while The Anointed One droned on.
Yeah, he did Joe. He also asked him why he blew up the twin towers, ordered the soldiers at Abu Gharib to abuse those prisoners, fell off the wagon, and why he took orders from Dick Cheney. He asked all of those important questions that the wingnuts are interested in.
So………, discourse consists of our posting our most insulting insults? I guess that this is America’s new definition of transparency. Mind if I ignore all of this and remain in the Eighteenth Century?
Seems like Ted is remembering the good old days that never were, when Cronkite, then Rather and Brokaw and Jennings, reported with total authority. Now we all know Cronkine, Rather, Brokaw and Jennings leaned heavily to the left.
Ted should be proud that I don’t know which way he leans. He has concealed that wisely throughout his career, but he is foolish or willfully ignorant to opine the journalists of old were objective and reliable.
joe, You’re asking me to look at comparitive insults. The issue is not throwing out nothing but insults, but placing an out of context insult within a well thoughtout statement. Weighing the comparitive insults is totally within the prespective of the reader and I find that the only conclusion is that an insult is an insult, regardless of weight.
I will also mention that when I find a website that exists only to bash, be crude or to insult, I leave it at once, never to return. Life is far too short to waste ones’ time on junk.
Glenn Beck was greatly irresponsible – and he needs to issue an apology – with his claim that George Soros somehow abetted the roundup of Jews in German occupied Hungary during the war.
Soros was a teenage boy at the time in an impossible situation (almost all of which we have learned directly from him) and no one can make judgments about his acts in such an environment.
Go after him for his political views, if you must. But this is really not acceptable.
Whatever crediblity Beck has as a commentator is pretty much used up.
“The issue is not throwing out nothing but insults, but placing an out of context insult within a well thoughtout statement.”
Are you speaking about my “insult” regarding the class of GWB vs. BHO. It’s not an “insult”. It’s the truth. GWB has way more class than BHO and he continues to show it everyday. You may not like it, but pointing it out doesn’t make it an “insult”.
I got an email advising me to watch Beck’s “interesting” expose of Soros. As far as I’m concerned, it’s one extremist attacking another. I. Don’t. Care.
INSULT, “to treat or speak to with scorn, insolence, or great disrespect; subject to treatment, a remark, etc. that hurts or is meant to hurt the feelings or pride”, (on and on).
Op-Eds are noted for their passion, but, categorical statements, especially in a world where the vast majority of mankind would disagree, is meant to be an insulting comment. I have been just as guilty of this as ls, and, I guess, that is why I recognize it so clearly.
The word “truth” can be very poorly utilized, except, of course, when one speakes of something or someone they love , or, maybe in the case where a rock is a rock.
icn2, We can always long for the day where everyday is a Friday or Saturday. It’s the old “peace in our time” prayer. I actually used to believe in it. Now, I just laugh and cry (prefer to watch CJ since she seems to be the only one who can calm me down and actually make me smile ).
Student riots in the UK, more violent disturbance in France and Greece and Spain as austerity measures are taken.
And yet a Tea Partyer in a walker disrupts a Townhall meeting or some jerk steps on a protester’s head and it’s the Brownshirts of America ascending on us.
I won’t defend the TP jerks above but some perspective please.
I don’t care what party you are, lifting passages without attribution is bad enough when you’re just a lowly author…it’s worse when you’re supposedly an authority like Doris “Gassbag” Kerns-Goodwin or Stephen Ambrose. But it’s totally unacceptable for a President of the United States.
…or some jerk steps on a protester’s head and it’s the Brownshirts of America ascending on us.
It’s just some jerk. My problem was with the event being downplayed on Fox as “stepped on her back”. They intentionally backpedaled on the facts on the (literal) ground to appease their audience. The jerk’s foot started on her back, then he stomped, which slid it to the base of her skull as it mashed her glasses into the ground. FNC’s handling of the story was not truthful..it was propaganda.
steve, I can certainly concour with your statement, though, I can also recognize the fear of escalation. Bottom line:” This was another one of those situations that went wild on the news, far beyond its’ merit.
If the media would concentrate on important matters, these “incidents” would be fewer ant farther between. Not saying that I don’t want to be made aware of what happened, in maximum detail, just not again and again and again ( and again and again and again).
Bush writes: “Tommy told the national security team that he was working to apply the same concept of a light footprint to Iraq… ‘If we have multiple, highly skilled Special Operations forces identifying targets for precision-guided munitions, we will need fewer conventional grounds forces,’ he said. ‘That’s an important lesson learned from Afghanistan.’ I had a lot of concerns. … I asked the team to keep working on the plan. ‘We should remain optimistic that diplomacy and international pressure will succeed in disarming the regime,’ I said at the end of the meeting. ‘But we cannot allow weapons of mass destruction to fall into the hands of terrorists. I will not allow that to happen.’”
Franks, in his memoir American Soldier, writes: “‘For example, if we have multiple, highly skilled Special Operations forces identifying targets for precision-guided munitions, we will need fewer conventional ground forces. That’s an important lesson learned from Afghanistan.’ President Bush’s questions continued throughout the briefing…. Before the VTC ended, President Bush addressed us all. ‘We should remain optimistic that diplomacy and international pressure will succeed in disarming the regime.’ … The President paused. ‘Protecting the security of the United States is my responsibility,’ he continued. ‘But we cannot allow weapons of mass destruction to fall into the hands of terrorists.’ He shook his head. ‘I will not allow that to happen.’”
He promised ‘em a book, they got a book. Heckuva job, George.
I agreed with you that’s it’s just a jerk, not “the Brownshirts”. Then I reminded you that the cable news angle on things like this is not what people think of the Tea Party, but how the networks talk about them. Fox persistently gives them legitimacy they have not earned, while downplaying their missteps.
Is Mara Liasson being used more as a reporter/analyst on Fox these days? Seems as though I’m seeing her more on Special Report lately, discussing presidential possibilities. I might just be paying more attention.
Many of Bush’s literary misdemeanors exemplify pedestrian sloth, but others are higher crimes against the craft of memoir. In one prime instance, Bush relates a poignant meeting between Afghan President Hamid Karzai and a Tajik warlord on Karzai’s Inauguration Day. It’s the kind of scene that offers a glimpse of a hopeful future for the beleaguered nation. Witnessing such an exchange could color a president’s outlook, could explain perhaps Bush’s more optimistic outlook and give insight into his future decisions. Except Bush didn’t witness it. Because he wasn’t at Karzai’s inauguration.
His absence doesn’t stop Bush from relating this anecdote: “When Karzai arrived in Kabul for his inauguration on December 22 – 102 days after 9/11 – several Northern Alliance leaders and their bodyguards greeted him at an airport. As Karzai walked across the tarmac alone, a stunned Tajik warlord asked where all his men were. Karzai, responded, ‘Why, General, you are my men. All of you who are Afghans are my men.’”
That meeting would sound familiar to Ahmed Rashid, author of “The Mess in Afghanistan”, who wrote in the New York Review of Books: “At the airport to receive [Karzai] was the warlord General Mohammad Fahim, a Tajik from the Panjshir Valley …. As the two men shook hands on the tarmac, Fahim looked confused. ‘Where are your men?’ he asked. Karzai turned to him in his disarmingly gentle manner of speaking. ‘Why General,” he replied, “you are my men–all of you are Afghans and are my men.’”
Steve, if you’re going to relate a description of an event you participated in, in almost the exact same way as it has already been related by someone else, you need to alert the reader that you are describing it as it was expressed in another book. Bush and the publisher claims this is a personal recollection from the man himself, but some parts of the book are obviously collated from some furious copy/pasting off The Google.
I will say that if he did anything outside of normal authoritarian practice, he’s a fool. Squads will earn years pay combing his stuff for typos, let alone anything real. On the other hand…he’s got the advance, and you people are going to hate him anyway. No great loss.
…is a brush-off that implies this isn’t a real story. Just because I’m going to hate him for BSing his way into a stupid war doesn’t change that he clearly plagiarized parts of his book, which – if I’m correct – has never happened with a Presidential memoir.
Bush and the publisher claims this is a personal recollection from the man himself, but some parts of the book are obviously collated from some furious copy/pasting off The Google.
Joe, I’ve never heard of attribution being required for an autobiography or first person account of events. If the author is reciting events that he or she was at, no attribution is required. Who do they give attribution to? They’re recounting events that they were at.
The fact that Bush haters – let’s be blunt, that’s what this is – are citing these sections, e.g., events that Bush was at, as examples of plagiarism shows that the people are not arguing in good faith.
As to the Karzai incident, that’s clearly not a first-person account and he should have attributed it.
I will guess – and that’s all it is – that other President’s have included anecdotes or stories that they didn’t attribute. That’s not a defense of these; just an observation.
Most POTUS’s don’t write there own books. They are mostly composed by committee. GWB would fall into that category and I can’t see him doing the research needed to write a book so I imagine if this plagiarism story has any substance the ghostwriters will take the fall.
you need to alert the reader that you are describing it as it was expressed in another book
Sorry, where in the heck did this rule come from? It’s a first person acount. There’s no need to “alert” the reader that a similar account was made in another work.
My guess is that Bush (or the authors) used transcripts.
GWB would fall into that category and I can’t see him doing the research needed to write a book so I imagine if this plagiarism story has any substance the ghostwriters will take the fall.
But he put his name on it. So he’s got to be held accountable.
If there are incidents in the book – and that Karzai one sure sounds like one – that are from second-hand sources and not from Bush, he needed to provide the source.
As to comments from individuals at meetings that Bush convened, I see no reason for him to give attribution. These are his first-person accounts of what happened. Who does he give attribution to for a first hand account?
No, but “you’ll hate him anyway” is a gratuitous parting shot that implies this is only a big deal to people who already dislike him. I don’t understand the point of it, otherwise. What’s wrong with just agreeing this doesn’t look good, without the unnecessary shot? It’s more of the thing we were talking about with Lonestar throwing a jab at Obama.
Steve, I clearly stated that he published a recollection someone else had of him at an event in almost the exact same way that author worded it. I simply do not believe he thought it up that way independently. He obviously didn’t keep copious notes during his presidency, so he was relegated to “reminders” from previously published sources. Everybody knows if you’re going to copy your homework from the internet, you need to reword it. He’s so lazy he didn’t even do that.
Eh, it’s a moot point. There should be a filter on my PC that blocks any attempts to talk about Bush. It always ends in disaster. Call me when the book tour is over.
I can’t believe that you can’t conceive of Bush using a White House source/transcript for these quotes.
The only explanation is he stole them from other people’s works?
It’s just not possible that he asked a staffer/researcher to go to the official transcripts of these meeting (these are transcribed) and get Franks’ quotes? And then he entered the quote from that?
Lesson learned: don’t talk about Bush with a liberal or about Obama with a conservative.
My hunch is that a few years from now I’ll be having this same conversation (or something like it) about Obama but with a conservative.
And from my understanding, Karzai has told a number of people about that incident.
For God’s sake, Steve, it’s not about the event being the same. It’s that the various paragraphs are the same, almost word for word. It does not read as a personal recollection, with Bush’s own thoughts about it. It’s a simple recital of another’s approach to the event. I don’t need a memoir that amounts to an anthology of previous reported incidents. That’s not a personal autobiography.
For God’s sake, Steve, it’s not about the event being the same. It’s that the various paragraphs are the same, almost word for word. It does not read as a personal recollection, with Bush’s own thoughts about it.
If you’re referring to your post above, you must be kidding? The only similarity is the quoted material from Frank and Bush and their comments.
Oy, we’re two people living in the same country but from different worlds.
Bush was a terrible president but some of this stuff directed at him, well, I don’t know what to say. The guy is judged by standards that no other person could meet.
Let’s just all say that Bush plagiarized everything in the book, or actually someone else did because he didn’t even write it. After it was written, he didn’t even read it cuz he can’t read or something. That will make Huffpo, Joe & the others sleep better tonight. It’s their own little whiskey shot. Yea, that’s over. On to the next Bush conspiracy theory.
ls, I, as you, don’t believe in these conspiracy theories. I do believe, however, that some of the people around the President exceeded their authority for political purposes. These have been hashed over for years and I prefer to let the research continue for at least another decade before I get too wrapped up in any conclusions. Either way, there will be no trials.
The plagiarism charge is stupid and you’ll excuse me if I don’t believe anything coming out of outlets like the huffpo after having lived through the daily outrageous charges coming from the left regarding Bush. Geez, an other wise sane person, named Joe, wants Bush to be put in prison. When it comes to Bush, the left is certifiably insane.
Sure, LS, don’t believe the words on the page. Did you really think the little idiot could cough up a book? How many SMART people do you know that can do that ? I’m surprised ANY of them accomplish it. Bit at least most of them had the sense to write some stuff down at the time, so they wouldn’t end up publishing an anthology of others’ books. Mr. Incurious is at it again. Maybe he should have written it from his gut. It might have been short, but it would have been honest.
This is odd. Olby had a segment planned tonite bashing Bush for plagiarism. At the last minute he killed the segment and did Thurber instead. On Twitter he said when he looked at the passages he found it to be less than he thought, not enuff to justify the segment.
^He said you needed to do selective editing; or something like that; for the claims to work. Your right J$ it was odd when he said that.
I’m not sure if he was referring to the Huffpost allegations or something else.
It’ll be intersting to see how this plays out. I don’t think HuffPo is claiming the whole book is plagiarized, anymore than Goodwin’s or Ambrose’s were. The question is: are there significant portions of the book that appear to be lifted from other sources, but presented as W’s own writings.
Maddow took on another part of the GWB memoir tonight; the line about Mitch McConnell asking him to pull out of Iraq so the Republicans would do better in the upcoming election.
Bush said he turned him down but it has put Mitch in the position of either being a complete hypocrite or calling Bush a liar.Either way it’s going to be a big story this week and much tougher to defend than the plagiarism charges.
fritz3, I thought that was rather interesting. How many times, over the decades, have we seen members of our Legislative Branch talk out of two or more sides of their mouths.
I still think that it seems that far too many people that run for office have really no interest in doing service to the Nation but only seek power and wealth. There are a few good souls, but, not enough.
Heard this on the news.. or maybe Leno – same thing. Lotta money, but the poor guy is getting screwed on this deal… more than 50% goes to taxes right off the bat, and then another 50% of that goes to his… soon to be “ex-wife” now that it’s been all over the news where he was when h bought it.
-crediting-
Decision Points By George W. Bush, written with research assistance from former White House Deputy Director of Speechwriting Christopher Michel.
I think Steve is right about much of that information being lifted off transcribed notes that don’t require attribution. Still, seems to me that most books of this nature usually include some general notation of research materials used.. and I’m not certain this one doesn’t.
If there are bona fide omissions of attribution, that would be President Bush’s fault. Given his significant educational background, the man has to know the proper etiquette of authorship and publishing rules. And his wife is a librarian.
He’s so calm about all the gruff going his way because he knows history will show him in very good light.
“Did you really think the little idiot could cough up a book?”
Again from the insanity dept. Thanks, insanity department. I would bet my house that if you were allowed to jump into the discussion he & O’Reilly had, you’d be left with nothing to do but twiddle your thumbs. You know, cuz it was an intelligent discussion, not just a couple lefties typing into a message board calling someone an idiot. It’s funny how world leaders & political adversaries say Bush is no dummy but if Olbermann & Joe from ICN say it, well it must be true. Afterall, they’re the real geniuses. Honestly Joe, you come across as a fool with these ridiculous charges. Bush is an idiot and should be in prison. That is the definition of wingnut speak. If Bush is an idiot, what does that make all of these people who call him an idiot? What in the world have they accomplished? Absurd.
Listen kids, as I’ve said a few times, I get a little crazy about W, and probably should bench it. I’d love to act as if this place is completely anonymous, but it doesn’t really work that way. I’ve made some friends here over the last couple years, and just popping off at them isn’t cool. So…I apologize for some of the snark I’ve passed Laura and Lonestar’s way on this subject. I have a personal line I try not to cross, and I’ve clearly crossed it. I’m sorry.
Joe, you are hereby suspended indefinitely without pay for violating the ICN ethics rules. However, since you did not personally observe them in print before you typed, and since other cable news blogs have different rules, feel free to come back whenever you feel like it!
joe, I just love the way that you will take a position, regardless of merit, and work and work to clarify your point, in the mist of the jungle swamp, till the point, right or wrong, is totally clear.
For that, I admire your determination. We should send you up against the Taliban, they wouldn’t have a chance.
joe, I just love the way that you will take a position, regardless of merit, and work and work to clarify your point, in the mist of the jungle swamp, till the point, right or wrong, is totally clear.
I don’t claim that my point is the right one. It’s just the right one, in my opinion. My goal is to not just announce it, but to dileneate the logic that brings me to it. Everyone has a background that affects how they see things. There’s no Ultimate Truth. There’s only The Truth, as it relates to our experience. That’s why I get frustrated with “left” and “right”. The person absolutely convinced that “left” is The Way, and “right” is “wrong”, is coming from a different life experience than the one who believes “right” is The Way.
In the end, they’re both right..from their experience. What I try to do here – in a place where conservatives outnumber the liberals – is understand their experience, while exposing them to mine. And if I’ve had any success, I find a way to appreciate how they can see things so opposite of the way I see them, and help them understand how I can be in such a different place.
In the end, we’re all living in the same chaotic world – with the same fears and questions – with different answers. And it would do us a lot of good to share those answers with each other, and not be so quick to condemn the ones that don’t immediately click our boxes. Because we’re both “right” sometimes.
LS: It’s a photo of Obama holding an umbrella. There’s nothing in the photo to indicate he’s having any trouble with it except the guy in the post says that’s what’s happening. Idiotic.
November 12, 2010 at 10:01 am
Jansing & Co had a calm, disciplined and exceptionally well conducted week. They are in DC next Tuesday and Wednesday. It will be interesting to see how the discipline goes in a different environment. My guess, as always, is in favor of Chris.
November 12, 2010 at 10:21 am
Just watched last night’s interview of Pres. Bush by BOR. It was the best one and I’ve watched all of them save Oprah. O’Reilly is a great interviewer and Bush was able to offer insights on just about everything that you’re not likely to find elsewhere. It was less about the book and more about past, present & future policy. It was a highly intellectual interview between two adults which is rare in cable news these days. Oh, and (FWIW) Bush has more class in his pinky than Obama does in his entire being.
November 12, 2010 at 10:47 am
I’m always struck with how different Bush looks these days. You can see that the weight of the office is no longer there. If anyone has the right to ‘Schadenfreude’, it’s a former president. Especially that one.
November 12, 2010 at 10:47 am
Reports are that they have found the body – or remains of it – of Zahra Baker.
Ten years old. Cancer. Lost a leg. Hearing disabled. Raised by a stepmother. Father took her from Australia a couple of years ago.
New world. New mom who beat her and locked in her room. New everything.
Not much of a life. Not much of a chance of life although she did appear to fight for one.
No more words to say.
November 12, 2010 at 11:25 am
ls, Your last sentence really destroyed an, otherwise, excellent comment. Have you noticed that commentators always seem to step up when they interview a standing or ex- President.
I knew President Bush when he was the governor of Texas and I felt that he was as relaxed then as he appears now. His problem was his “process” in the presidential years.
BOR can really step it up, when he wants to do so. Over the years, I have seen several excellent interviews. His ongoing problem, maybe less now, in older age and more experience, is his control of his temper.
November 12, 2010 at 11:32 am
Fred, Lonestar’s parting shot is a disease inherent to political-blog commentors: It’s not enough to make a point about the topic at hand; a quick shot at the opposition seems necessary..like “what if I fail to mention how much I hate the other guy, and he gets away with something?”. John Boehnor has stupid orange skin and cries too much.
November 12, 2010 at 11:35 am
Funny. I thought his last sentence was a tasteful statement of an obvious truth. Harry Reid has a nose you could ski off of.
November 12, 2010 at 12:02 pm
You people may take it as a “shot” but it was a commentary on the interview and the previous interview’s GWB has done. Besides, it’s the truth. BOR couldn’t even get Bush to complain about the hatefest that was his media coverage. All he said about them was that he harbors no resentment towards the media. Compare that to President thin-skin’s seemingly weekly whining about the press, Bush or some other imagined “enemy”.
I believe that GWB is truthful when he says he puts the office of the Presidency above himself…unlike Carter or Obama. If that bothers you, tough shiite.
November 12, 2010 at 12:09 pm
Interesting item on TV newser revealing that only Fox broke out of programming to cover Obama’s late-night news conference last night in Asia. CNN, MSNBC and HLN all blew it.
Can’t be a news network if you’re not prepared to broadcast the news.
November 12, 2010 at 12:11 pm
It doesn’t bother me a bit, it’s just a cheesy cheap shot. Did BOR ask Bush why he bullsh!ted the American public about yellow cake and mushrooms clouds so he could start a stupid war in the wrong country? Yeah, I didn’t think so.
November 12, 2010 at 12:13 pm
Good catch, JWE. I’m a pathetic excuse for a news viewer; I was waiting for Red Eye and throwing things at the screen while The Anointed One droned on.
November 12, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Yeah, he did Joe. He also asked him why he blew up the twin towers, ordered the soldiers at Abu Gharib to abuse those prisoners, fell off the wagon, and why he took orders from Dick Cheney. He asked all of those important questions that the wingnuts are interested in.
November 12, 2010 at 12:31 pm
^oops, almost forgot. His last question was why he ordered God to send a big hurricane to a city full of black people.
November 12, 2010 at 12:31 pm
So………, discourse consists of our posting our most insulting insults? I guess that this is America’s new definition of transparency. Mind if I ignore all of this and remain in the Eighteenth Century?
November 12, 2010 at 12:42 pm
Eh, it’s not that bad, Fred. Spend a few minutes at Newsbusters or Mediaite, and you’ll think we’re angels over here.
November 12, 2010 at 1:04 pm
Ted Koppel takes aim at Olbermann, O’Reilly and the rest in this WAPO piece.
http://wapo.st/9KNfQQ
Seems like Ted is remembering the good old days that never were, when Cronkite, then Rather and Brokaw and Jennings, reported with total authority. Now we all know Cronkine, Rather, Brokaw and Jennings leaned heavily to the left.
Ted should be proud that I don’t know which way he leans. He has concealed that wisely throughout his career, but he is foolish or willfully ignorant to opine the journalists of old were objective and reliable.
November 12, 2010 at 1:08 pm
joe, You’re asking me to look at comparitive insults. The issue is not throwing out nothing but insults, but placing an out of context insult within a well thoughtout statement. Weighing the comparitive insults is totally within the prespective of the reader and I find that the only conclusion is that an insult is an insult, regardless of weight.
I will also mention that when I find a website that exists only to bash, be crude or to insult, I leave it at once, never to return. Life is far too short to waste ones’ time on junk.
November 12, 2010 at 1:11 pm
Glenn Beck was greatly irresponsible – and he needs to issue an apology – with his claim that George Soros somehow abetted the roundup of Jews in German occupied Hungary during the war.
Soros was a teenage boy at the time in an impossible situation (almost all of which we have learned directly from him) and no one can make judgments about his acts in such an environment.
Go after him for his political views, if you must. But this is really not acceptable.
Whatever crediblity Beck has as a commentator is pretty much used up.
November 12, 2010 at 1:15 pm
“The issue is not throwing out nothing but insults, but placing an out of context insult within a well thoughtout statement.”
Are you speaking about my “insult” regarding the class of GWB vs. BHO. It’s not an “insult”. It’s the truth. GWB has way more class than BHO and he continues to show it everyday. You may not like it, but pointing it out doesn’t make it an “insult”.
November 12, 2010 at 1:16 pm
… no one can make judgments about his acts in such an environment.
Well we can’t based on what we know. And almost everything we know has come from Soros.
Beck came up with no new evidence of Soros’s culpability in those horrors.
It’s another example of one side demonizing the other even if the evidence of their malevolence doesn’t exist.
November 12, 2010 at 1:26 pm
I got an email advising me to watch Beck’s “interesting” expose of Soros. As far as I’m concerned, it’s one extremist attacking another. I. Don’t. Care.
November 12, 2010 at 1:28 pm
Oops, probably should specify the email didn’t come from an ICNer. Nobody here would tell me to watch Glenn Beck.
November 12, 2010 at 1:43 pm
As far as I’m concerned, it’s one extremist attacking another. I. Don’t. Care.
Guess it’s just me but I think accusing someone of aiding in the murder of people is more than just the usual cable news spitting contest.
November 12, 2010 at 1:47 pm
Agreed, Steve.
November 12, 2010 at 1:48 pm
INSULT, “to treat or speak to with scorn, insolence, or great disrespect; subject to treatment, a remark, etc. that hurts or is meant to hurt the feelings or pride”, (on and on).
November 12, 2010 at 2:01 pm
“It’s not an “insult”. It’s the truth”
^It’s an opinion; and not a particularly well thought out at that.
November 12, 2010 at 2:05 pm
Coulda been worse. He coulda said, “It’s the truth and YOU KNOW IT!” My favorite..
November 12, 2010 at 2:30 pm
Op-Eds are noted for their passion, but, categorical statements, especially in a world where the vast majority of mankind would disagree, is meant to be an insulting comment. I have been just as guilty of this as ls, and, I guess, that is why I recognize it so clearly.
, or, maybe in the case where a rock is a rock. 
The word “truth” can be very poorly utilized, except, of course, when one speakes of something or someone they love
November 12, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Speaking of GWB and truth; Ryan Grim over at Huffpost is reporting many of the passages in DP are plagiarized. Gee, color me shocked!
November 12, 2010 at 3:05 pm
I hate slow news days like today. Even the press releases I’ve seen aren’t worth noting…
November 12, 2010 at 3:35 pm
icn2, We can always long for the day where everyday is a Friday or Saturday. It’s the old “peace in our time” prayer. I actually used to believe in it. Now, I just laugh and cry (prefer to watch CJ since she seems to be the only one who can calm me down and actually make me smile
).
November 12, 2010 at 3:40 pm
Chris Mathews just made a verbal booboo to Pat Buchanan. It’s Friday and we’re tired. Still, CM is a very good man, love watching.
November 12, 2010 at 3:40 pm
I hate slow news days like today.
It’s post-midterm/KO hangover. All we’ve got this week is Bush selling a book, which leads to ancient debates that bore everyone to tears. Yippee.
November 12, 2010 at 3:43 pm
“Speaking of GWB and truth; Ryan Grim over at Huffpost is reporting many of the passages in DP are plagiarized. Gee, color me shocked!”
Yaaaaaaaaawwwn.
November 12, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Student riots in the UK, more violent disturbance in France and Greece and Spain as austerity measures are taken.
And yet a Tea Partyer in a walker disrupts a Townhall meeting or some jerk steps on a protester’s head and it’s the Brownshirts of America ascending on us.
I won’t defend the TP jerks above but some perspective please.
November 12, 2010 at 3:55 pm
I don’t care what party you are, lifting passages without attribution is bad enough when you’re just a lowly author…it’s worse when you’re supposedly an authority like Doris “Gassbag” Kerns-Goodwin or Stephen Ambrose. But it’s totally unacceptable for a President of the United States.
November 12, 2010 at 3:55 pm
…or some jerk steps on a protester’s head and it’s the Brownshirts of America ascending on us.
It’s just some jerk. My problem was with the event being downplayed on Fox as “stepped on her back”. They intentionally backpedaled on the facts on the (literal) ground to appease their audience. The jerk’s foot started on her back, then he stomped, which slid it to the base of her skull as it mashed her glasses into the ground. FNC’s handling of the story was not truthful..it was propaganda.
November 12, 2010 at 4:00 pm
I don’t care what party you are, lifting passages without attribution is bad enough
I’ll defer to the experts on this but does quoting yourself from comments you made to another author require attribution?
If I tell you in an interview, “I like pie” and you write that, must I attribute or source that quote to you if I use it in a piece I write?
Seems to me this is not such a black-and-white question.
November 12, 2010 at 4:01 pm
Oy, I knew I shouldn’t have mentioned that incident.
How about the larger point there Joe?
November 12, 2010 at 4:05 pm
steve, I can certainly concour with your statement, though, I can also recognize the fear of escalation. Bottom line:” This was another one of those situations that went wild on the news, far beyond its’ merit.
If the media would concentrate on important matters, these “incidents” would be fewer ant farther between. Not saying that I don’t want to be made aware of what happened, in maximum detail, just not again and again and again ( and again and again and again).
November 12, 2010 at 4:09 pm
Bush writes: “Tommy told the national security team that he was working to apply the same concept of a light footprint to Iraq… ‘If we have multiple, highly skilled Special Operations forces identifying targets for precision-guided munitions, we will need fewer conventional grounds forces,’ he said. ‘That’s an important lesson learned from Afghanistan.’ I had a lot of concerns. … I asked the team to keep working on the plan. ‘We should remain optimistic that diplomacy and international pressure will succeed in disarming the regime,’ I said at the end of the meeting. ‘But we cannot allow weapons of mass destruction to fall into the hands of terrorists. I will not allow that to happen.’”
Franks, in his memoir American Soldier, writes: “‘For example, if we have multiple, highly skilled Special Operations forces identifying targets for precision-guided munitions, we will need fewer conventional ground forces. That’s an important lesson learned from Afghanistan.’ President Bush’s questions continued throughout the briefing…. Before the VTC ended, President Bush addressed us all. ‘We should remain optimistic that diplomacy and international pressure will succeed in disarming the regime.’ … The President paused. ‘Protecting the security of the United States is my responsibility,’ he continued. ‘But we cannot allow weapons of mass destruction to fall into the hands of terrorists.’ He shook his head. ‘I will not allow that to happen.’”
He promised ‘em a book, they got a book. Heckuva job, George.
November 12, 2010 at 4:12 pm
How about the larger point there Joe?
I agreed with you that’s it’s just a jerk, not “the Brownshirts”. Then I reminded you that the cable news angle on things like this is not what people think of the Tea Party, but how the networks talk about them. Fox persistently gives them legitimacy they have not earned, while downplaying their missteps.
November 12, 2010 at 4:15 pm
He promised ‘em a book, they got a book. Heckuva job, George.
So quoting from a transcript (or his recollection) of a meeting that he was in requires attribution?
Where did this standard come from?
Have we applied this rule to other Presidential biographies?
If he didn’t attribute the material properly, I’ll join in the criticism but this is a bit grayer than some people seem to think.
November 12, 2010 at 4:17 pm
HuffPo trumping-up charges against George Bush? Color me surprised.
November 12, 2010 at 4:18 pm
I agreed with you that’s it’s just a jerk, not “the Brownshirts”.
Well, I’m also talking about these incident in Europe. They seem to presage some troubling events.
As the old saying goes, “Fascism is always about to arrive in America but always landing in Europe.”
November 12, 2010 at 4:24 pm
Is Mara Liasson being used more as a reporter/analyst on Fox these days? Seems as though I’m seeing her more on Special Report lately, discussing presidential possibilities. I might just be paying more attention.
November 12, 2010 at 4:45 pm
Many of Bush’s literary misdemeanors exemplify pedestrian sloth, but others are higher crimes against the craft of memoir. In one prime instance, Bush relates a poignant meeting between Afghan President Hamid Karzai and a Tajik warlord on Karzai’s Inauguration Day. It’s the kind of scene that offers a glimpse of a hopeful future for the beleaguered nation. Witnessing such an exchange could color a president’s outlook, could explain perhaps Bush’s more optimistic outlook and give insight into his future decisions. Except Bush didn’t witness it. Because he wasn’t at Karzai’s inauguration.
His absence doesn’t stop Bush from relating this anecdote: “When Karzai arrived in Kabul for his inauguration on December 22 – 102 days after 9/11 – several Northern Alliance leaders and their bodyguards greeted him at an airport. As Karzai walked across the tarmac alone, a stunned Tajik warlord asked where all his men were. Karzai, responded, ‘Why, General, you are my men. All of you who are Afghans are my men.’”
That meeting would sound familiar to Ahmed Rashid, author of “The Mess in Afghanistan”, who wrote in the New York Review of Books: “At the airport to receive [Karzai] was the warlord General Mohammad Fahim, a Tajik from the Panjshir Valley …. As the two men shook hands on the tarmac, Fahim looked confused. ‘Where are your men?’ he asked. Karzai turned to him in his disarmingly gentle manner of speaking. ‘Why General,” he replied, “you are my men–all of you are Afghans and are my men.’”
Yeah, it’s HuffPo’s fault..
November 12, 2010 at 4:50 pm
Steve, if you’re going to relate a description of an event you participated in, in almost the exact same way as it has already been related by someone else, you need to alert the reader that you are describing it as it was expressed in another book. Bush and the publisher claims this is a personal recollection from the man himself, but some parts of the book are obviously collated from some furious copy/pasting off The Google.
November 12, 2010 at 5:15 pm
I will say that if he did anything outside of normal authoritarian practice, he’s a fool. Squads will earn years pay combing his stuff for typos, let alone anything real. On the other hand…he’s got the advance, and you people are going to hate him anyway. No great loss.
November 12, 2010 at 5:29 pm
and you people are going to hate him anyway.
…is a brush-off that implies this isn’t a real story. Just because I’m going to hate him for BSing his way into a stupid war doesn’t change that he clearly plagiarized parts of his book, which – if I’m correct – has never happened with a Presidential memoir.
November 12, 2010 at 5:38 pm
Last I checked, ”he’s a fool” is not a brush-off.
November 12, 2010 at 5:43 pm
Bush and the publisher claims this is a personal recollection from the man himself, but some parts of the book are obviously collated from some furious copy/pasting off The Google.
Joe, I’ve never heard of attribution being required for an autobiography or first person account of events. If the author is reciting events that he or she was at, no attribution is required. Who do they give attribution to? They’re recounting events that they were at.
The fact that Bush haters – let’s be blunt, that’s what this is – are citing these sections, e.g., events that Bush was at, as examples of plagiarism shows that the people are not arguing in good faith.
As to the Karzai incident, that’s clearly not a first-person account and he should have attributed it.
I will guess – and that’s all it is – that other President’s have included anecdotes or stories that they didn’t attribute. That’s not a defense of these; just an observation.
November 12, 2010 at 5:43 pm
Most POTUS’s don’t write there own books. They are mostly composed by committee. GWB would fall into that category and I can’t see him doing the research needed to write a book so I imagine if this plagiarism story has any substance the ghostwriters will take the fall.
November 12, 2010 at 5:45 pm
you need to alert the reader that you are describing it as it was expressed in another book
Sorry, where in the heck did this rule come from? It’s a first person acount. There’s no need to “alert” the reader that a similar account was made in another work.
My guess is that Bush (or the authors) used transcripts.
November 12, 2010 at 5:47 pm
GWB would fall into that category and I can’t see him doing the research needed to write a book so I imagine if this plagiarism story has any substance the ghostwriters will take the fall.
But he put his name on it. So he’s got to be held accountable.
If there are incidents in the book – and that Karzai one sure sounds like one – that are from second-hand sources and not from Bush, he needed to provide the source.
As to comments from individuals at meetings that Bush convened, I see no reason for him to give attribution. These are his first-person accounts of what happened. Who does he give attribution to for a first hand account?
November 12, 2010 at 5:53 pm
Last I checked, ”he’s a fool” is not a brush-off.
No, but “you’ll hate him anyway” is a gratuitous parting shot that implies this is only a big deal to people who already dislike him. I don’t understand the point of it, otherwise. What’s wrong with just agreeing this doesn’t look good, without the unnecessary shot? It’s more of the thing we were talking about with Lonestar throwing a jab at Obama.
November 12, 2010 at 5:54 pm
On the lighter side:
“Ticket bought at Michigan porn shop worth $129M” (story link).
Debbie buys Dallas?
Ok, maybe Topeka?
Sheboygan?
November 12, 2010 at 5:58 pm
I’m so sorry if my comments don’t meet the highest standards of this establishment. I’ll try to do better in the future.
November 12, 2010 at 5:59 pm
Steve, I clearly stated that he published a recollection someone else had of him at an event in almost the exact same way that author worded it. I simply do not believe he thought it up that way independently. He obviously didn’t keep copious notes during his presidency, so he was relegated to “reminders” from previously published sources. Everybody knows if you’re going to copy your homework from the internet, you need to reword it. He’s so lazy he didn’t even do that.
November 12, 2010 at 6:00 pm
I’m so sorry if my comments don’t meet the highest standards of this establishment. I’ll try to do better in the future.
That’s another lovely brush-off, but thanks for playing.
November 12, 2010 at 6:05 pm
Steve, I clearly stated that he published a recollection someone else had of him at an event in almost the exact same way that author worded it
Yes, Joe, if you’re talking about the Franks meeting they’re called transcripts. Taken by others in the room.
It’s not possible that Bush (or the co-author) used those transcripts when he mentioned those quotes?
As did Franks? And that’s why they’re nearly identical?
They used transcripts and not other people’s works?
November 12, 2010 at 6:11 pm
Eh, it’s a moot point. There should be a filter on my PC that blocks any attempts to talk about Bush. It always ends in disaster. Call me when the book tour is over.
November 12, 2010 at 6:19 pm
Dan Abrams is on P/S to talk about – wait for it – Sarah Palin. I don’t know what was said as I switched the channel.
November 12, 2010 at 6:21 pm
Eh, it’s a moot point.
I can’t believe that you can’t conceive of Bush using a White House source/transcript for these quotes.
The only explanation is he stole them from other people’s works?
It’s just not possible that he asked a staffer/researcher to go to the official transcripts of these meeting (these are transcribed) and get Franks’ quotes? And then he entered the quote from that?
Lesson learned: don’t talk about Bush with a liberal or about Obama with a conservative.
My hunch is that a few years from now I’ll be having this same conversation (or something like it) about Obama but with a conservative.
And from my understanding, Karzai has told a number of people about that incident.
November 12, 2010 at 6:24 pm
For God’s sake, Steve, it’s not about the event being the same. It’s that the various paragraphs are the same, almost word for word. It does not read as a personal recollection, with Bush’s own thoughts about it. It’s a simple recital of another’s approach to the event. I don’t need a memoir that amounts to an anthology of previous reported incidents. That’s not a personal autobiography.
November 12, 2010 at 6:32 pm
For God’s sake, Steve, it’s not about the event being the same. It’s that the various paragraphs are the same, almost word for word. It does not read as a personal recollection, with Bush’s own thoughts about it.
If you’re referring to your post above, you must be kidding? The only similarity is the quoted material from Frank and Bush and their comments.
Oy, we’re two people living in the same country but from different worlds.
Bush was a terrible president but some of this stuff directed at him, well, I don’t know what to say. The guy is judged by standards that no other person could meet.
November 12, 2010 at 6:39 pm
It’s identical in tone and layout. That’s not recollection, it’s copy/pasting.
November 12, 2010 at 7:12 pm
Let’s just all say that Bush plagiarized everything in the book, or actually someone else did because he didn’t even write it. After it was written, he didn’t even read it cuz he can’t read or something. That will make Huffpo, Joe & the others sleep better tonight. It’s their own little whiskey shot. Yea, that’s over. On to the next Bush conspiracy theory.
November 12, 2010 at 7:21 pm
ls, I, as you, don’t believe in these conspiracy theories. I do believe, however, that some of the people around the President exceeded their authority for political purposes. These have been hashed over for years and I prefer to let the research continue for at least another decade before I get too wrapped up in any conclusions. Either way, there will be no trials.
November 12, 2010 at 7:25 pm
The plagiarism charge is stupid and you’ll excuse me if I don’t believe anything coming out of outlets like the huffpo after having lived through the daily outrageous charges coming from the left regarding Bush. Geez, an other wise sane person, named Joe, wants Bush to be put in prison. When it comes to Bush, the left is certifiably insane.
November 12, 2010 at 7:40 pm
Sure, LS, don’t believe the words on the page. Did you really think the little idiot could cough up a book? How many SMART people do you know that can do that ? I’m surprised ANY of them accomplish it. Bit at least most of them had the sense to write some stuff down at the time, so they wouldn’t end up publishing an anthology of others’ books. Mr. Incurious is at it again. Maybe he should have written it from his gut. It might have been short, but it would have been honest.
November 12, 2010 at 7:47 pm
This is odd. Olby had a segment planned tonite bashing Bush for plagiarism. At the last minute he killed the segment and did Thurber instead. On Twitter he said when he looked at the passages he found it to be less than he thought, not enuff to justify the segment.
I really don’t know what to make of that.
November 12, 2010 at 7:57 pm
I noticed it, too, J$. What’s up with that?
November 12, 2010 at 8:01 pm
^He said you needed to do selective editing; or something like that; for the claims to work. Your right J$ it was odd when he said that.
I’m not sure if he was referring to the Huffpost allegations or something else.
November 12, 2010 at 8:06 pm
It’ll be intersting to see how this plays out. I don’t think HuffPo is claiming the whole book is plagiarized, anymore than Goodwin’s or Ambrose’s were. The question is: are there significant portions of the book that appear to be lifted from other sources, but presented as W’s own writings.
November 12, 2010 at 8:14 pm
Ugh, now he’s on Greta. Back to Speed Channel. Call me when something involving people currently in office happens.
November 12, 2010 at 8:20 pm
Maddow took on another part of the GWB memoir tonight; the line about Mitch McConnell asking him to pull out of Iraq so the Republicans would do better in the upcoming election.
Bush said he turned him down but it has put Mitch in the position of either being a complete hypocrite or calling Bush a liar.Either way it’s going to be a big story this week and much tougher to defend than the plagiarism charges.
November 12, 2010 at 8:48 pm
fritz3, I thought that was rather interesting. How many times, over the decades, have we seen members of our Legislative Branch talk out of two or more sides of their mouths.
I still think that it seems that far too many people that run for office have really no interest in doing service to the Nation but only seek power and wealth. There are a few good souls, but, not enough.
November 12, 2010 at 8:52 pm
“Ticket bought at Michigan porn shop worth $129M”
Heard this on the news.. or maybe Leno – same thing. Lotta money, but the poor guy is getting screwed on this deal… more than 50% goes to taxes right off the bat, and then another 50% of that goes to his… soon to be “ex-wife” now that it’s been all over the news where he was when h bought it.
-crediting-
Decision Points By George W. Bush, written with research assistance from former White House Deputy Director of Speechwriting Christopher Michel.
I think Steve is right about much of that information being lifted off transcribed notes that don’t require attribution. Still, seems to me that most books of this nature usually include some general notation of research materials used.. and I’m not certain this one doesn’t.
If there are bona fide omissions of attribution, that would be President Bush’s fault. Given his significant educational background, the man has to know the proper etiquette of authorship and publishing rules. And his wife is a librarian.
He’s so calm about all the gruff going his way because he knows history will show him in very good light.
November 12, 2010 at 9:14 pm
“Did you really think the little idiot could cough up a book?”
Again from the insanity dept. Thanks, insanity department. I would bet my house that if you were allowed to jump into the discussion he & O’Reilly had, you’d be left with nothing to do but twiddle your thumbs. You know, cuz it was an intelligent discussion, not just a couple lefties typing into a message board calling someone an idiot. It’s funny how world leaders & political adversaries say Bush is no dummy but if Olbermann & Joe from ICN say it, well it must be true. Afterall, they’re the real geniuses. Honestly Joe, you come across as a fool with these ridiculous charges. Bush is an idiot and should be in prison. That is the definition of wingnut speak. If Bush is an idiot, what does that make all of these people who call him an idiot? What in the world have they accomplished? Absurd.
November 12, 2010 at 9:21 pm
This is the definition of an intellectual:
http://www.cosmicconservative.com/weblog/?p=8079
November 12, 2010 at 9:24 pm
President Poppins.
November 12, 2010 at 10:20 pm
Listen kids, as I’ve said a few times, I get a little crazy about W, and probably should bench it. I’d love to act as if this place is completely anonymous, but it doesn’t really work that way. I’ve made some friends here over the last couple years, and just popping off at them isn’t cool. So…I apologize for some of the snark I’ve passed Laura and Lonestar’s way on this subject. I have a personal line I try not to cross, and I’ve clearly crossed it. I’m sorry.
November 12, 2010 at 10:42 pm
Joe, you are hereby suspended indefinitely without pay for violating the ICN ethics rules. However, since you did not personally observe them in print before you typed, and since other cable news blogs have different rules, feel free to come back whenever you feel like it!
November 12, 2010 at 10:45 pm
^ Wait..there’s pay?
November 12, 2010 at 11:17 pm
joe, I just love the way that you will take a position, regardless of merit, and work and work to clarify your point, in the mist of the jungle swamp, till the point, right or wrong, is totally clear.
For that, I admire your determination. We should send you up against the Taliban, they wouldn’t have a chance.
November 12, 2010 at 11:27 pm
Joe, you are hereby suspended indefinitely without pay for violating the ICN ethics rules.
What is it with you Conservatives anyways? First you take over the House, now you try to take over ICN!
November 12, 2010 at 11:31 pm
… at least J$ accused ICN of having ethics.
Come Mr. Tali-ban
Joe’ll drive you ba-nan-as.
His bicycle come and he’ll wanna run you down.
November 13, 2010 at 12:03 am
joe, I just love the way that you will take a position, regardless of merit, and work and work to clarify your point, in the mist of the jungle swamp, till the point, right or wrong, is totally clear.
I don’t claim that my point is the right one. It’s just the right one, in my opinion. My goal is to not just announce it, but to dileneate the logic that brings me to it. Everyone has a background that affects how they see things. There’s no Ultimate Truth. There’s only The Truth, as it relates to our experience. That’s why I get frustrated with “left” and “right”. The person absolutely convinced that “left” is The Way, and “right” is “wrong”, is coming from a different life experience than the one who believes “right” is The Way.
In the end, they’re both right..from their experience. What I try to do here – in a place where conservatives outnumber the liberals – is understand their experience, while exposing them to mine. And if I’ve had any success, I find a way to appreciate how they can see things so opposite of the way I see them, and help them understand how I can be in such a different place.
In the end, we’re all living in the same chaotic world – with the same fears and questions – with different answers. And it would do us a lot of good to share those answers with each other, and not be so quick to condemn the ones that don’t immediately click our boxes. Because we’re both “right” sometimes.
November 13, 2010 at 12:05 am
His bicycle come and he’ll wanna run you down.
Nah..I pedal too slow.
November 13, 2010 at 6:41 am
“This is the definition of an intellectual:”
LS: It’s a photo of Obama holding an umbrella. There’s nothing in the photo to indicate he’s having any trouble with it except the guy in the post says that’s what’s happening. Idiotic.
November 13, 2010 at 9:07 am
It’s almost a nice picture of him holding an umbrella for his wife. Almost.