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Rev Al has a verbal tick that’s starting to annoy me. After Chris tosses to him, Al starts off every single show with some version of “Hey Republicans, …”. Does Al think that there is a vast legion of Republicans A) watching his show and B) eager to take his advice?
The Casey Anthony and Amanda Knox stories and how they could make millions reveals how the free market can be flawed. Or is it more reflective of the consumers?
Your premise assumes one or both of them are guilty. Since our legal systems are of human design and, thus, fallible, the best we can do is place the burden of proof upon the prosecution. The free market system affords the defendant an opportunity to pay for such things as outside forensic laboratories. Sometimes common sense is commonly wrong.
Hey Andy, did you know it’s fun to pick on Wall Street protestors as a bunch of dumb hippies with nothing to complain about? Apparently the right thinks it’s HYSTERICAL that the middle class are getting screwed by those greedy bastards. Ha.
Thanks Al for completely destroying my faulty argument. I can’t use OJ Simpson because his book failed.
Still, I don’t get the interest in those stories or why they’re important enough for local papers in my town to post photos of them covering a quarter of the front pages.
Yeah, Romney played that card today, too. You got a problem with class warfare against Wall Street, Mitt? They deep-sixed the housing market, which deep-sixed the rest of the economy, and nothing happened to them. You want war, b/tches? Bring it on.
Andy, I’m not too sure about the momentum you seem excited about. Some news broadcasts are playing it up as a counter to the Tea Party… Bolshevik Party, I suppose. Looks more like a bunch of young peole attracted to a pizza party in the park. One of two things seems likely to occur. Cold, snow, boredom and lack of money will clear everyone out by the ides of March -OR- Unions and professional activists will take control completely changing the character of the “momentum”.
No, but if anyone and especially the protesters are upset with the current economic downturn, let’s look at the other half of the cause. Let’s face it, Wall St. is built on greed, that’s how it’s structured unfortunately. You can’t really change that easily if at all. The gov’t is supposed to control it but failed. I would argue it’s the gov’t who is more at fault.
Dream on. Just because a couple kids might go home doesn’t mean this is over. There’s a lot of pissed off people out here who are getting a little tired of “job creator” lies and “the poor need to do their share” insults. Somebody needs to fight for the working poor. Apparently it’s going to be the working poor themselves.
No. Presidents Clinton and Bush both warned the Congress of impending disaster unless changes were made in law so that lenders (esp. Fannie & Freddie) weren’t forced to extend financing beyond means. Both presidents also warned of inflated housing market values. You may recall Rep. Franks’ now infamous statement about there being no risk whatsoever of default.
Wall Street is implicated because federal law required these loans to be insured, and there were simply too many risky loans to cover. Because the federally mandated loans drove housing prices artificially high, even those who took ot loans they could afford were inflicted.
The beef is with Congress. Wall Street, whether for good or evil, only did what was required by law.
Horsecrap. Wall Street and the government are joined at the hip. It’s one big monolith trading members back and forth in a constant cycle which completely skips over the regular working man. It’s obscene.
Americans are fed up with the bought Congress letting the corporations screw us over. The recession is a lie, it’s being manufactured by the corporations to justify mass-layoffs and lower wages while they record record profits. They’re going to use every excuse in the book to say they’re hurting and the government should give them all the wealth. Since the corporations own the media, the media won’t call them out.
I’ve enjoyed Dylan Ratigan’s campaign, and I’m glad Ed, KO, Alyona and Dylan are standing up for us. We’re not gonna take it anymore!
joeremi Says:
Do I look like I give a damn which party is involved in this mess?
Well, yes… Yes you do.
Somebody needs to fight for the working poor. Apparently it’s going to be the working poor themselves.
And they’re going to fight for themselves (despite us not really knowing if those are poor people protesting… and it’s relatively unlikely that they are… most poor people are trying to get jobs and money, not standing around whining about it)… by NOT working, and NOT looking for jobs, and NOT trying to improve their situation! No, they’re going to sleep in front of a bunch of buildings that are SYMBOLIC, but have little real impact to the folks they’re trying to shout at.
Oh, and they’ll do things to get arrested… which always helps people find jobs… criminal records!
October 4, 2011 at 7:58 pm
Yeah… man! If we could all, just… you know… hold hands, and sing… then, man, it would be so… riiiiight.
So what is the protests solution? What are they hoping for? Mainstream socialism (we’ve seen a few posters to that effect)? More Democrats elected (we’ve seen that too)? What do they want? What do YOU want, Joe?
The protests are spreading, despite attempts by Google, Yahoo, Twitter and the rest of the corporate media (FOX, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC) trying to shut it down. The only mainstream outlet on our side is the forward leaning network. The rest of the mainstream media is trying to silence the middle class. FOX tells us we should bend over and accept it because the rich “Create jobs” (in China) and that we should “reward success” by giving the rich more money and paying for our shortcomings.
I’m proud of the work I do. I pay my taxes, work for every cent I make. When these mufti-millionaires get on TV and tell me I’m not doing enough and should make sacrifices, eff ‘em.
And now they’re treading on the youth, telling them that they should give up their Pell Grants and, essentially, not go to college and work for minimum wage the rest of their life. Hell, that’s just doing their part for “country” (aka, the Corporations that control this country).
The Middle Class is tired of being the scapegoat for the problems that Washington and their criminal friends on Wall Street for us in.
So what is the solution? What aren’t you going to take anymore… and how are you, practically, going to “not take it?”
Funny how “we’re not in a recession,” or going into a second one now. Remember how the left screamed, “we’re going into a recession,” as a way to attack Bush and Republicans? I don’t remember hearing a lot about corporations then either. Funny how times change.
I guess when you need someone other than the guy running for office to blame, “reality” changes, and a new scapegoat must be found.
Keep in mind Andy is an admitted Socialist, thus his solution is to destroy Capitalism. Then, everyone will be poor with no hope to earn a better life for themselves.
The people. You know, just like the ones whomanage to show up at Tea Party rallies instead of getting a job and going to work. They show up, they shout, they vote. Our turn.
The people will lead it? I thought you guys thought when the Tea Party said something similar, they were all stupid? Funny how that changed too.
Oh… and didn’t most of the Tea Party folks talk about how they were taking time off work to rally? And didn’t they only rally for a day at a time… not a major sit in, which requires people with no jobs? Hmm.
so·cial·ism/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
Noun: A political and economic theory of that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
com·mu·nism/ˈkämyəˌnizəm/
Noun: A political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.
See the difference?
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I don’t play bumper sticker politics.
And likewise, I don’t think the rallies now are stupid. I just think they’re disorganized, unfocused, populist/socialist nonsense, and food for those who feel like sitting in the street and getting arrested will bring them back to the glamorous times of their parents.
Oh, and if people are going to sit around complaining that they don’t have jobs… it’s tough for me to feel too much sympathy, when there, you know, sitting around.
@ andy
Does not wanting to play “bumper sticker politics” mean you won’t give any kind of solutions or answers?
But Blue, they can get that along with the “free” healthcare that will only be paid for by The Rich! You just don’t understand magical thinking, that’s all.
– bumper-sticker politics –
This from someone whose only knowledge of Ronald Reagan comes from MSNBC. You know Reagan; the guy the Tea Party wouldn’t vote for.
I haven’t read the list..I’m sure there’s some ridiculous stuff on it. I’m sure not every Tea Partier agrees with every other Tea Partier, either.
Blue, your assumption that all protestors are unemployed is effing stupid. I get off at 9am tomorrow, and clock back in at 2pm. I have other business, so can’t make this one, but there’s a protest in San Francisco tomorrow that this employed person could have made. So could plenty of waiters, bartenders, nurses, 7-11 graveyard shift cashiers, etc. You’re playing a very lazy “liberals are lazy” game, and yes, I’m enjoying the irony.
Joe… the story about these rallies aren’t the casual attendee, so let’s not pretend like it is. The story is/was the folks sleeping in the street, and willing (asking) to get arrested.
Attending a protest is terrific. Sleeping on the street because you think it’s going to accomplish something, is just stupid… and the action of spoiled rich kids, who don’t need to work, so they can engage in such moronic behavior.
For those supporting the Tea Parties, it’s quite simple to agree because what they want is quite simple: Restoring to the constitutionally limited federal powers and a balanced budget.
What we want is quite simple, too: Big Money to stop running everything, while devouring ever more money. Our politicians are bought, and they sell the country out to the buyers.
Any spoiled rich kid willing to lay in the street long enough to get the media to pay attention to the fact that people like me are fed up is fine with me. If they’re genuinely spoiled and rich, then they’re fighting for something other than their own self interest. God bless ‘em.
Oh no they’re not, Joe. They’re fighting for an idealistic view of the world, which is founded on the principle that mommy and daddy will take care of them, no matter how they screw up.
They’re yuppies, not hippies. You ever wonder why Kashi is so expensive, and which health nuts are eating it? Those are the folks. People in the MIchael Moore mold (although, I doubt he’s ever come near a box of Kashi). Folks who say, “MONEY IS EVIL!” but have a $hit ton of it at home.
They’re out there because they don’t know any better, and think they’re special. That… and to get laid by other yuppies.
Don’t bother. It’s all abstract concepts and buzz words that mean nothing. They want “fairness” and “equality,” but have no idea what either of those things really mean, or how to get there.
It’s just more scapegoating. The rich people have, the poor people have not, so the rich must be bad. It’s super simple, and really illogical.
Only the federal government can “devour” money. It does this by spending in areas it should stay out of which either raises the costs for everyone else or snuffs out the private money that can’t compete.
With respect to the private sector, the economy is not zero sum. That is, you making more does not limit the ability of me or anyone else from making more, also. That’s why business is called “creating wealth”.
More to the point, Wall Street investors (including all the little old ladies on fixed incomes who depend on those investments) could make trillions without creating any negative economic result on you. You and many thousands of others got screwed because elected politicians tried to enact social change through federal housing subsidies and banking laws. From Tea Party perspective, unconstitutionally. If words don’t mean what they mean when written then there will always be horrible unintended consequences.
Well, thank goodness we have folks like you, who can tell folks like me (you know, part of the working class) what I really think.
Climb off your high horse, and quit pretending like you, or this protest, speaks for “the middle class.” You speak for a small group of left-wingers and far left-wingers, many of whom have gotten very wealthy within the system they so complain about.
But no, I don’t care what Michael Moore or Keith Olbermann have to say about “the greedy rich.” Once they say, “Yeah, I’m the greedy rich I keep complaining about, so I’m going to give away my fortune,” maybe I’ll listen. Until then, I’ll recognize that they’re playing you for an idiot… and winning.
“I’ll give up my fortune” is ludicrous. Most rich people give generously to charity, and that’s all the fortune giving-up I care about. This BS about “if you want to pay more taxes, go ahead” is senseless. One man paying a little more doesn’t mean squat. We need ALL of them, AND the corporations, to pay a reasonable share, and stop bribing politicians for more loopholes and less regulation.
This country is rapidly turning into a few rich, and the rest dirt poor and grateful for a minimum wage job. Which they’ll get screwed by when the minimum wage is repealed. Third World country? Huh, soon that will be “the good old days” if we don’t take a stand against this madness.
Pick a number somewhere between Reagan and Clinton, and close the loopholes that Average Joe has no access to so we all actually pay the rate stipulated. It won’t magically solve the debt crisis, but it would go some way towards making the country feel like we’re all in this together, and will get back to economic health together. Right now what we have is class warfare, and it was declared on the Regular Guy by the extreme right wing of the Republican Party. This stops.
Businesses write the cheques to the tax man; You pay the tax. Meanwhile, more manufacturing heads overseas where such taxes are lower.
The problems can not be solved through higher taxes on anyone. The solution is to lower our expectations from the federal government and cut its spending. Over time, higher taxes can reduce the federal debt, but that won’t realistically begin to happen until there’s a required annual balanced budget. And if you think raising taxes on business and high income earners can somehow alleviate the need to cut spending then a fifth-grader can whip your butt in a math competition.
You’ve gotta do both. Show me a Republican in office who supports both. They’re not there. Remember Eric Cantor? “We can work with the President, but revenue is off the table.” Where’s the “compromise” in THAT? “We support cutting spending” is not a compromise, it’s THE ONLY DAMN THING THEY EVER PROPOSE. Oh wait, I forgot, they also throw MORE tax cuts in, too, which makes not a lick of sense unless you remember “deficits don’t matter”.
The GOP doesn’t care about the debt, they’re just blowing smoke up the arses of people like you who take it seriously. “Cut spending, cut taxes”. That’s it. Madness.
Spending was crazy on George Bush’s watch. Under Obama, federal spending makes Bush look like a coupon cutter. Seriously. So far Washington is up to its same tricks – counting not spending as much as they were going to spend as “cuts”.
No. Not another dime in taxes until I see trillions in real spending cuts. And balance the federal budget. Then we’ll talk.
No, I spend tens of thousands on cutting my taxes. That’s not cheating, that’s complying with tax law.
How many times have you heard Obama say, “And we’ll provide tax credits to companies [who do such and such”? On one hand it’s an incentive to do something they want a company to do, but on the other hand it’s a dastardly loophole. Which is it?
I was going to spend half a million on machines over the next three years. The law was changed so that, if I buy them this year, I can write them off this year. “Hmmm… I guess the government really wants me to spend that money this year.” OK. That’s a tax loophole and that’s all any of the fat-cats are doing. I think these loopholes are stupid but I’d be a moron if I didn’t take advantage of them – because I know damn-well my competition is taking advantage of them and I have jobs to protect.
Nope. I’m not willing to watch a recession starved into a depression by tax-cutting/social-program-slashing hawks. The Haves don’t get their way this time.
The “compromise” is stated by Pres. Obama something like, “To restore tax rates back to what they were during the Clinton era.” And we want to be in this together, right? OK, let’s take all income tax rates back to what they were during Clinton’s administration – and we were all doing great then, right? Bush’s tax cuts for you were more than they were for me, but it’s for compromise and being in this together.
I think it’s adorable how you both talk about it as though you have anything to say about it. A bunch of idiots screaming in the streets will accomplish what they always do, which is nothing. For better and worse, it’s all frozen in place until Obama’s bony ass is out of office.
Roll em all back, stop acting like Social Security is on the verge of bankruptcy, stop proposing insanity like eliminating the minumum wage, and stop letting businesses that screw Americans operate here, THEN we’ll talk.
Doesn’t matter. This level of federal spending is unsustainable regardless of taxation levels, so it will either be reduced through real spending cuts or it will be done through inflation. The lower income earners bear the most difficult part of the latter – food prices. That sucks.
I’ve got an interesting drinking game challenge for the next time this topic comes up…
Every time Joe (or someone else on the left) uses a meaningless buzzword or cliche (see: corporations, fat cats, loop holes, military industrial complex, etc.), you take a drink.
Every time Joe (or someone else on the left) gives a real applicable solution to fix the problem, or a plan of attack on how to actually make a difference… donate a $100 to PETA.
Sounds like fun, right?! On the one hand, you won’t lose any money. On the other hand, you might be dead by the time he starts saying his first round of “goodbyes.”
Ya know, Blue, I’ve repeatedly tried to have a semi-entertaining debate with you, and you’ve repeatedly resorted to some horseshyte about “saying goodbye”, which I’ll have you know came at a very traumatic time in my life which I’m quite sick of being reminded of. So if you don’t mind, I would appreciate it if you would stick to the topic we’re currently discussing at any given time, without dragging up some really bad nights I’d just as soon forget. Deal?
I’m mocking your “that’s it, I’m going outside” comments on this site, after you get frustrated. Those comments, which seemingly say, “goodbye,” are almost always followed by another post a few minutes later.
It’s the guy shouting at someone, throwing his hands up, walking a few steps away before turning around and adding an, “And another thing…”
I have no idea what “personal” issue you’re talking about, nor am I trying to mock it.
October 4, 2011 at 8:13 am
As soon as Morning Joe predicted Chris Christie was running, he wasn’t.
October 4, 2011 at 8:54 am
“As soon as Morning Joe predicted Chris Christie was running, he wasn’t.”
I didn’t realize Joe had so much influence over Christie’s decision making process. Nice catch Larry.
October 4, 2011 at 9:09 am
Rev Al has a verbal tick that’s starting to annoy me. After Chris tosses to him, Al starts off every single show with some version of “Hey Republicans, …”. Does Al think that there is a vast legion of Republicans A) watching his show and B) eager to take his advice?
October 4, 2011 at 11:18 am
So Christie said no for the 20th time.How many times does he have to say no?
October 4, 2011 at 11:22 am
I want to smack the people who say that he’s been indefinite. As far as I can tell, he’s said nothing but “No”. Shut up about it.
October 4, 2011 at 1:53 pm
Joe Scarborough, angry about his failed Christie prediction, stormed off the set to purchase an iPhone 5.
October 4, 2011 at 2:02 pm
What exactly did Christie say this time that makes it “official”?
October 4, 2011 at 2:26 pm
“Rock Center with Brian Williams” will debut October 31st. Whether it is a trick or a treat remains to be seen.
October 4, 2011 at 4:02 pm
“Hey Republicans … “
October 4, 2011 at 4:33 pm
Oops, he did it again.
October 4, 2011 at 4:53 pm
– What did Christie say this time? –
“Get off my lawn, Kristol!!”
October 4, 2011 at 4:58 pm
The Casey Anthony and Amanda Knox stories and how they could make millions reveals how the free market can be flawed. Or is it more reflective of the consumers?
October 4, 2011 at 5:19 pm
-Flawed-
Your premise assumes one or both of them are guilty. Since our legal systems are of human design and, thus, fallible, the best we can do is place the burden of proof upon the prosecution. The free market system affords the defendant an opportunity to pay for such things as outside forensic laboratories. Sometimes common sense is commonly wrong.
October 4, 2011 at 6:39 pm
999 – economic mark of Cain
October 4, 2011 at 6:53 pm
Occupy Wall Street protests gaining momentum, without the help of the main steam media… SUCK IT, TEA PARTY!!!
October 4, 2011 at 7:11 pm
Hey Andy, did you know it’s fun to pick on Wall Street protestors as a bunch of dumb hippies with nothing to complain about? Apparently the right thinks it’s HYSTERICAL that the middle class are getting screwed by those greedy bastards. Ha.
October 4, 2011 at 7:13 pm
Thanks Al for completely destroying my faulty argument. I can’t use OJ Simpson because his book failed.
Still, I don’t get the interest in those stories or why they’re important enough for local papers in my town to post photos of them covering a quarter of the front pages.
This is definitely interesting, Afghans protesting the Taliban and talks with the Taliban publicly.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-15161009
October 4, 2011 at 7:22 pm
@joeremi: FOX is right, it is “Class Warfare”, we’re fighting back after the 30 year screw job we’ve received.
October 4, 2011 at 7:27 pm
Your argument may have been faulty, OS, but your sentiment is right on the money.
October 4, 2011 at 7:28 pm
Yeah, Romney played that card today, too. You got a problem with class warfare against Wall Street, Mitt? They deep-sixed the housing market, which deep-sixed the rest of the economy, and nothing happened to them. You want war, b/tches? Bring it on.
October 4, 2011 at 7:30 pm
Wall Street deep-six’d the housing market? O….. K.
October 4, 2011 at 7:31 pm
^ Let ‘em bay at each other. Rationality is pointless.
October 4, 2011 at 7:35 pm
Isn’t it Clinton who helped and enabled those greedy bankers to sink the housing market?
October 4, 2011 at 7:36 pm
Yeah, thinking that Big Business had nothing to do with the gamed housing market is totally irrational. Unbelievable.
October 4, 2011 at 7:36 pm
“something to do”
October 4, 2011 at 7:38 pm
Isn’t it Clinton who helped and enabled those greedy bankers to sink the housing market?
Do I look like I give a damn which party is involved in this mess? They’re all in on it.
October 4, 2011 at 7:44 pm
Andy, I’m not too sure about the momentum you seem excited about. Some news broadcasts are playing it up as a counter to the Tea Party… Bolshevik Party, I suppose. Looks more like a bunch of young peole attracted to a pizza party in the park. One of two things seems likely to occur. Cold, snow, boredom and lack of money will clear everyone out by the ides of March -OR- Unions and professional activists will take control completely changing the character of the “momentum”.
October 4, 2011 at 7:49 pm
No, but if anyone and especially the protesters are upset with the current economic downturn, let’s look at the other half of the cause. Let’s face it, Wall St. is built on greed, that’s how it’s structured unfortunately. You can’t really change that easily if at all. The gov’t is supposed to control it but failed. I would argue it’s the gov’t who is more at fault.
October 4, 2011 at 7:50 pm
Dream on. Just because a couple kids might go home doesn’t mean this is over. There’s a lot of pissed off people out here who are getting a little tired of “job creator” lies and “the poor need to do their share” insults. Somebody needs to fight for the working poor. Apparently it’s going to be the working poor themselves.
October 4, 2011 at 7:55 pm
-Isn’t it Clinton…-
No. Presidents Clinton and Bush both warned the Congress of impending disaster unless changes were made in law so that lenders (esp. Fannie & Freddie) weren’t forced to extend financing beyond means. Both presidents also warned of inflated housing market values. You may recall Rep. Franks’ now infamous statement about there being no risk whatsoever of default.
Wall Street is implicated because federal law required these loans to be insured, and there were simply too many risky loans to cover. Because the federally mandated loans drove housing prices artificially high, even those who took ot loans they could afford were inflicted.
The beef is with Congress. Wall Street, whether for good or evil, only did what was required by law.
October 4, 2011 at 7:58 pm
Horsecrap. Wall Street and the government are joined at the hip. It’s one big monolith trading members back and forth in a constant cycle which completely skips over the regular working man. It’s obscene.
October 4, 2011 at 8:05 pm
Correct. What you wrote is indeed horsecrap.
October 4, 2011 at 8:09 pm
Americans are fed up with the bought Congress letting the corporations screw us over. The recession is a lie, it’s being manufactured by the corporations to justify mass-layoffs and lower wages while they record record profits. They’re going to use every excuse in the book to say they’re hurting and the government should give them all the wealth. Since the corporations own the media, the media won’t call them out.
I’ve enjoyed Dylan Ratigan’s campaign, and I’m glad Ed, KO, Alyona and Dylan are standing up for us. We’re not gonna take it anymore!
October 4, 2011 at 8:14 pm
joeremi Says:
Do I look like I give a damn which party is involved in this mess?
Well, yes… Yes you do.
Somebody needs to fight for the working poor. Apparently it’s going to be the working poor themselves.
And they’re going to fight for themselves (despite us not really knowing if those are poor people protesting… and it’s relatively unlikely that they are… most poor people are trying to get jobs and money, not standing around whining about it)… by NOT working, and NOT looking for jobs, and NOT trying to improve their situation! No, they’re going to sleep in front of a bunch of buildings that are SYMBOLIC, but have little real impact to the folks they’re trying to shout at.
Oh, and they’ll do things to get arrested… which always helps people find jobs… criminal records!
October 4, 2011 at 7:58 pm
Yeah… man! If we could all, just… you know… hold hands, and sing… then, man, it would be so… riiiiight.
So what is the protests solution? What are they hoping for? Mainstream socialism (we’ve seen a few posters to that effect)? More Democrats elected (we’ve seen that too)? What do they want? What do YOU want, Joe?
October 4, 2011 at 8:16 pm
The protests are spreading, despite attempts by Google, Yahoo, Twitter and the rest of the corporate media (FOX, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC) trying to shut it down. The only mainstream outlet on our side is the forward leaning network. The rest of the mainstream media is trying to silence the middle class. FOX tells us we should bend over and accept it because the rich “Create jobs” (in China) and that we should “reward success” by giving the rich more money and paying for our shortcomings.
I’m proud of the work I do. I pay my taxes, work for every cent I make. When these mufti-millionaires get on TV and tell me I’m not doing enough and should make sacrifices, eff ‘em.
And now they’re treading on the youth, telling them that they should give up their Pell Grants and, essentially, not go to college and work for minimum wage the rest of their life. Hell, that’s just doing their part for “country” (aka, the Corporations that control this country).
The Middle Class is tired of being the scapegoat for the problems that Washington and their criminal friends on Wall Street for us in.
ROCK ON, OCCUPY PROTESTERS!!!
October 4, 2011 at 8:17 pm
If you’re not going to take it anymore, Andy, what exactly are you going to do other than make noise?
October 4, 2011 at 8:19 pm
@ Andy
So what is the solution? What aren’t you going to take anymore… and how are you, practically, going to “not take it?”
Funny how “we’re not in a recession,” or going into a second one now. Remember how the left screamed, “we’re going into a recession,” as a way to attack Bush and Republicans? I don’t remember hearing a lot about corporations then either. Funny how times change.
I guess when you need someone other than the guy running for office to blame, “reality” changes, and a new scapegoat must be found.
October 4, 2011 at 8:19 pm
@ larry
Listen to a lot of Twisted Sister.
October 4, 2011 at 8:21 pm
@imnotblue You don’t know me, AT ALL. I’ve been very vocal about Obama for not having balls and keeping his campaign promises.
If you think I’m an Obama supporter, you’re dead ass wrong. I’m tired of bought politicians.
October 4, 2011 at 8:23 pm
You say you want a revolution / Well you know, we all want to change the world.
October 4, 2011 at 8:23 pm
Keep in mind Andy is an admitted Socialist, thus his solution is to destroy Capitalism. Then, everyone will be poor with no hope to earn a better life for themselves.
October 4, 2011 at 8:27 pm
Socialism does seem to have a perfect track record.
October 4, 2011 at 8:29 pm
@ Andy
Terrific. So what’s the solution?
And who will lead this fantastic revolution?
October 4, 2011 at 8:32 pm
@Andy, we’re waiting with antic-
-pation.
October 4, 2011 at 8:32 pm
@Al: You’re confusing “socialism” with “communism”.
October 4, 2011 at 8:34 pm
And who will lead this fantastic revolution?
The people. You know, just like the ones whomanage to show up at Tea Party rallies instead of getting a job and going to work. They show up, they shout, they vote. Our turn.
October 4, 2011 at 8:36 pm
Andy, you’re a Communist?
October 4, 2011 at 8:38 pm
@ Joe
The people will lead it? I thought you guys thought when the Tea Party said something similar, they were all stupid? Funny how that changed too.
Oh… and didn’t most of the Tea Party folks talk about how they were taking time off work to rally? And didn’t they only rally for a day at a time… not a major sit in, which requires people with no jobs? Hmm.
October 4, 2011 at 8:39 pm
I remember when 700 of the Tea Party were arrested and… maybe I don’t.
October 4, 2011 at 8:41 pm
Blue, stop the inanity. Some BS about people “who should be looking for work” is a childish distraction to the topic at hand.
Btw, I didn’t think the Tea Party holding rallies was stupid. It was the people at them.
October 4, 2011 at 8:43 pm
so·cial·ism/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
Noun: A political and economic theory of that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
com·mu·nism/ˈkämyəˌnizəm/
Noun: A political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.
See the difference?
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I don’t play bumper sticker politics.
October 4, 2011 at 8:45 pm
This discussion turning silly. The protesters have nothing specific to offer but complaints — as do their defenders here.
October 4, 2011 at 8:48 pm
Having no abilities and lots of needs, just send me a pile of money.
October 4, 2011 at 8:49 pm
Goodnight.
October 4, 2011 at 8:52 pm
Enjoy this list of the 13 demands of the Wall Street protesters, straight from the official occupy wall street website:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/
My favorite is Demand #11. Though Demand #12 would mean the end of a rather annoying commercial.
October 4, 2011 at 8:54 pm
just send me a pile of money.
That’s the motto of Wall Street. To paraphrase the Tea Party, I want my economy BACK, you m*****f*****s.
October 4, 2011 at 8:54 pm
@ joe
And likewise, I don’t think the rallies now are stupid. I just think they’re disorganized, unfocused, populist/socialist nonsense, and food for those who feel like sitting in the street and getting arrested will bring them back to the glamorous times of their parents.
Oh, and if people are going to sit around complaining that they don’t have jobs… it’s tough for me to feel too much sympathy, when there, you know, sitting around.
@ andy
Does not wanting to play “bumper sticker politics” mean you won’t give any kind of solutions or answers?
October 4, 2011 at 8:58 pm
@ Joe
Wait… you want your government back from the people you elected to put in there?
Huh?
October 4, 2011 at 9:05 pm
@ J$
That can’t possibly be a serious list. Even super-angry Joe, can’t agree with all of those things.
Hell, I’d like to see how those folks would plan on accomplishing half of those things:
“Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.”
Sooo… why would anyone work then?
“Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.”
Sooo… anyone can come here, live here… and get paid? Sounds pretty sweet to me!
October 4, 2011 at 9:13 pm
– Demand three –
But Blue, they can get that along with the “free” healthcare that will only be paid for by The Rich! You just don’t understand magical thinking, that’s all.
– bumper-sticker politics –
This from someone whose only knowledge of Ronald Reagan comes from MSNBC. You know Reagan; the guy the Tea Party wouldn’t vote for.
October 4, 2011 at 9:21 pm
I haven’t read the list..I’m sure there’s some ridiculous stuff on it. I’m sure not every Tea Partier agrees with every other Tea Partier, either.
Blue, your assumption that all protestors are unemployed is effing stupid. I get off at 9am tomorrow, and clock back in at 2pm. I have other business, so can’t make this one, but there’s a protest in San Francisco tomorrow that this employed person could have made. So could plenty of waiters, bartenders, nurses, 7-11 graveyard shift cashiers, etc. You’re playing a very lazy “liberals are lazy” game, and yes, I’m enjoying the irony.
October 4, 2011 at 9:27 pm
Joe… the story about these rallies aren’t the casual attendee, so let’s not pretend like it is. The story is/was the folks sleeping in the street, and willing (asking) to get arrested.
Attending a protest is terrific. Sleeping on the street because you think it’s going to accomplish something, is just stupid… and the action of spoiled rich kids, who don’t need to work, so they can engage in such moronic behavior.
October 4, 2011 at 9:32 pm
For those supporting the Tea Parties, it’s quite simple to agree because what they want is quite simple: Restoring to the constitutionally limited federal powers and a balanced budget.
October 4, 2011 at 9:34 pm
What we want is quite simple, too: Big Money to stop running everything, while devouring ever more money. Our politicians are bought, and they sell the country out to the buyers.
October 4, 2011 at 9:36 pm
Who is “Big Money”?
October 4, 2011 at 9:38 pm
Any spoiled rich kid willing to lay in the street long enough to get the media to pay attention to the fact that people like me are fed up is fine with me. If they’re genuinely spoiled and rich, then they’re fighting for something other than their own self interest. God bless ‘em.
October 4, 2011 at 9:38 pm
Don’t patronize me, Al.
October 4, 2011 at 9:54 pm
Oh no they’re not, Joe. They’re fighting for an idealistic view of the world, which is founded on the principle that mommy and daddy will take care of them, no matter how they screw up.
They’re yuppies, not hippies. You ever wonder why Kashi is so expensive, and which health nuts are eating it? Those are the folks. People in the MIchael Moore mold (although, I doubt he’s ever come near a box of Kashi). Folks who say, “MONEY IS EVIL!” but have a $hit ton of it at home.
They’re out there because they don’t know any better, and think they’re special. That… and to get laid by other yuppies.
October 4, 2011 at 9:55 pm
@ Al
Don’t bother. It’s all abstract concepts and buzz words that mean nothing. They want “fairness” and “equality,” but have no idea what either of those things really mean, or how to get there.
It’s just more scapegoating. The rich people have, the poor people have not, so the rich must be bad. It’s super simple, and really illogical.
October 4, 2011 at 9:58 pm
You have no f***ing clue why the working class is so angry, and – like most conservatives – don’t care.
October 4, 2011 at 10:01 pm
Only the federal government can “devour” money. It does this by spending in areas it should stay out of which either raises the costs for everyone else or snuffs out the private money that can’t compete.
With respect to the private sector, the economy is not zero sum. That is, you making more does not limit the ability of me or anyone else from making more, also. That’s why business is called “creating wealth”.
More to the point, Wall Street investors (including all the little old ladies on fixed incomes who depend on those investments) could make trillions without creating any negative economic result on you. You and many thousands of others got screwed because elected politicians tried to enact social change through federal housing subsidies and banking laws. From Tea Party perspective, unconstitutionally. If words don’t mean what they mean when written then there will always be horrible unintended consequences.
October 4, 2011 at 10:04 pm
@ Joe
Well, thank goodness we have folks like you, who can tell folks like me (you know, part of the working class) what I really think.
Climb off your high horse, and quit pretending like you, or this protest, speaks for “the middle class.” You speak for a small group of left-wingers and far left-wingers, many of whom have gotten very wealthy within the system they so complain about.
But no, I don’t care what Michael Moore or Keith Olbermann have to say about “the greedy rich.” Once they say, “Yeah, I’m the greedy rich I keep complaining about, so I’m going to give away my fortune,” maybe I’ll listen. Until then, I’ll recognize that they’re playing you for an idiot… and winning.
October 4, 2011 at 10:10 pm
“I’ll give up my fortune” is ludicrous. Most rich people give generously to charity, and that’s all the fortune giving-up I care about. This BS about “if you want to pay more taxes, go ahead” is senseless. One man paying a little more doesn’t mean squat. We need ALL of them, AND the corporations, to pay a reasonable share, and stop bribing politicians for more loopholes and less regulation.
This country is rapidly turning into a few rich, and the rest dirt poor and grateful for a minimum wage job. Which they’ll get screwed by when the minimum wage is repealed. Third World country? Huh, soon that will be “the good old days” if we don’t take a stand against this madness.
October 4, 2011 at 10:13 pm
How much is “reasonable?”
50% 60% 90%
What are we talking about?
October 4, 2011 at 10:21 pm
Pick a number somewhere between Reagan and Clinton, and close the loopholes that Average Joe has no access to so we all actually pay the rate stipulated. It won’t magically solve the debt crisis, but it would go some way towards making the country feel like we’re all in this together, and will get back to economic health together. Right now what we have is class warfare, and it was declared on the Regular Guy by the extreme right wing of the Republican Party. This stops.
October 4, 2011 at 10:25 pm
Businesses write the cheques to the tax man; You pay the tax. Meanwhile, more manufacturing heads overseas where such taxes are lower.
The problems can not be solved through higher taxes on anyone. The solution is to lower our expectations from the federal government and cut its spending. Over time, higher taxes can reduce the federal debt, but that won’t realistically begin to happen until there’s a required annual balanced budget. And if you think raising taxes on business and high income earners can somehow alleviate the need to cut spending then a fifth-grader can whip your butt in a math competition.
October 4, 2011 at 10:32 pm
You’ve gotta do both. Show me a Republican in office who supports both. They’re not there. Remember Eric Cantor? “We can work with the President, but revenue is off the table.” Where’s the “compromise” in THAT? “We support cutting spending” is not a compromise, it’s THE ONLY DAMN THING THEY EVER PROPOSE. Oh wait, I forgot, they also throw MORE tax cuts in, too, which makes not a lick of sense unless you remember “deficits don’t matter”.
The GOP doesn’t care about the debt, they’re just blowing smoke up the arses of people like you who take it seriously. “Cut spending, cut taxes”. That’s it. Madness.
October 4, 2011 at 10:38 pm
I already pay at least double the rate you pay. And I pay BOTH sides of the payroll taxes. DON”T F’in tell me I’m not paying my fair share.
October 4, 2011 at 10:42 pm
That’s lovely, Al, but there’s a lot of people and companies who are paying good lawyers to get away with things you and I don’t.
October 4, 2011 at 10:45 pm
Spending was crazy on George Bush’s watch. Under Obama, federal spending makes Bush look like a coupon cutter. Seriously. So far Washington is up to its same tricks – counting not spending as much as they were going to spend as “cuts”.
No. Not another dime in taxes until I see trillions in real spending cuts. And balance the federal budget. Then we’ll talk.
October 4, 2011 at 10:55 pm
No, I spend tens of thousands on cutting my taxes. That’s not cheating, that’s complying with tax law.
How many times have you heard Obama say, “And we’ll provide tax credits to companies [who do such and such”? On one hand it’s an incentive to do something they want a company to do, but on the other hand it’s a dastardly loophole. Which is it?
I was going to spend half a million on machines over the next three years. The law was changed so that, if I buy them this year, I can write them off this year. “Hmmm… I guess the government really wants me to spend that money this year.” OK. That’s a tax loophole and that’s all any of the fat-cats are doing. I think these loopholes are stupid but I’d be a moron if I didn’t take advantage of them – because I know damn-well my competition is taking advantage of them and I have jobs to protect.
October 4, 2011 at 10:56 pm
Nope. I’m not willing to watch a recession starved into a depression by tax-cutting/social-program-slashing hawks. The Haves don’t get their way this time.
October 4, 2011 at 11:05 pm
The “compromise” is stated by Pres. Obama something like, “To restore tax rates back to what they were during the Clinton era.” And we want to be in this together, right? OK, let’s take all income tax rates back to what they were during Clinton’s administration – and we were all doing great then, right? Bush’s tax cuts for you were more than they were for me, but it’s for compromise and being in this together.
October 4, 2011 at 11:10 pm
I think it’s adorable how you both talk about it as though you have anything to say about it. A bunch of idiots screaming in the streets will accomplish what they always do, which is nothing. For better and worse, it’s all frozen in place until Obama’s bony ass is out of office.
October 4, 2011 at 11:10 pm
Roll em all back, stop acting like Social Security is on the verge of bankruptcy, stop proposing insanity like eliminating the minumum wage, and stop letting businesses that screw Americans operate here, THEN we’ll talk.
The last word is yours, I’m tired.
October 4, 2011 at 11:12 pm
I’m talkative. Sue me.
October 4, 2011 at 11:16 pm
Wake up and go to sleep, Joe.
Doesn’t matter. This level of federal spending is unsustainable regardless of taxation levels, so it will either be reduced through real spending cuts or it will be done through inflation. The lower income earners bear the most difficult part of the latter – food prices. That sucks.
October 5, 2011 at 9:19 am
I’ve got an interesting drinking game challenge for the next time this topic comes up…
Every time Joe (or someone else on the left) uses a meaningless buzzword or cliche (see: corporations, fat cats, loop holes, military industrial complex, etc.), you take a drink.
Every time Joe (or someone else on the left) gives a real applicable solution to fix the problem, or a plan of attack on how to actually make a difference… donate a $100 to PETA.
Sounds like fun, right?! On the one hand, you won’t lose any money. On the other hand, you might be dead by the time he starts saying his first round of “goodbyes.”
October 5, 2011 at 9:24 am
Ya know, Blue, I’ve repeatedly tried to have a semi-entertaining debate with you, and you’ve repeatedly resorted to some horseshyte about “saying goodbye”, which I’ll have you know came at a very traumatic time in my life which I’m quite sick of being reminded of. So if you don’t mind, I would appreciate it if you would stick to the topic we’re currently discussing at any given time, without dragging up some really bad nights I’d just as soon forget. Deal?
October 5, 2011 at 9:44 am
Policy keeps me from taking you up on that, Not-Blue.
October 5, 2011 at 11:01 am
Joe, I havge no idea what you’re talking about.
I’m mocking your “that’s it, I’m going outside” comments on this site, after you get frustrated. Those comments, which seemingly say, “goodbye,” are almost always followed by another post a few minutes later.
It’s the guy shouting at someone, throwing his hands up, walking a few steps away before turning around and adding an, “And another thing…”
I have no idea what “personal” issue you’re talking about, nor am I trying to mock it.